Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
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There's an analysis I have that I'd like to get you, @tidalwave, and anyone else with some knowledge in this field to weigh in on. I'm going to take x nanometre "feature" or "node" to mean a square of side length x nanometres. I'll also assume the validity of Moore's law, doubly of transistor (or "feature") density every two years or, equivalently, halving of feature area every two years. I also recall reading that the smallest silicon transistor created contains 12 silicon atoms (there are single-atom transistors, but they're made out of other materials and require liquid nitrogen cooling; they're not in the lithography discussion). Finally, note that a silicon (Si) atom has a diameter of 0.2 nm.

If we take 7nm as the starting point, we calculate that a 7nm square contains 1,225 Si atoms. Given the lower limit of 12 Si atoms, it would take approximately 6.67 doublings or generations to reach that lower limit (a feature length of roughly 0.7nm). Since a doubling occurs every two years, we have the physical limit of Moore's law reached between 13 and 14 years from now. That's all the runway TSMC, ASML and their ilk have left. After that they hit a hard physical wall that has nothing to with economics. The great thing is if they're stopped, it will take China on the order of months to completely close whatever gap remains (if any) - it's much easier to catch up to a stationary target.

@tidalwave, your idea about synchrotrons really intrigued me. The issue I see with it (beyond the logistical matter of siting the fab adjacent to the synchrotron) is that synchs produce all manner of radiation besides UV, so some kind of filter would have to be employed to screen out the undesirable components of the synch's output. I think that synchrotrons would also produce UV of a shorter wavelength than ASML's EUV machines produce, which would allow smaller node sizes. The great thing there is that only the filter or the average particle energy in the synchrotron would have to be changed to get the desired wavelength of UV light, instead of having to design a light source de novo. It really is a neat idea and I hope Chinese scientists are looking into it.

The US is investigating it:
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Advancing industrial uses – e.g. EUV microlithography, UV curing
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
It's strange why it wouldn't be feasible. TSMC is using the same EUV machines it used to make 7nm to make 5nm and 3nm, they're already a sunk cost. China needs to get at least its first-gen DPP EUV machine in service yesterday.
ASML has to upgrade its EUV equipment for more power for smaller nodes.

The mask cost. EUV mask cost way more than optical mask.

Majority of 7nm layers for TSMC that dont require multipatterning still using traditional optical and reserve the more expensive EUV mask for critical layers.
5nm will either completely switch to EUV for all layers or use EUV for much more layers.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
There's an analysis I have that I'd like to get you, @tidalwave, and anyone else with some knowledge in this field to weigh in on. I'm going to take x nanometre "feature" or "node" to mean a square of side length x nanometres. I'll also assume the validity of Moore's law, doubly of transistor (or "feature") density every two years or, equivalently, halving of feature area every two years. I also recall reading that the smallest silicon transistor created contains 12 silicon atoms (there are single-atom transistors, but they're made out of other materials and require liquid nitrogen cooling; they're not in the lithography discussion). Finally, note that a silicon (Si) atom has a diameter of 0.2 nm.

If we take 7nm as the starting point, we calculate that a 7nm square contains 1,225 Si atoms. Given the lower limit of 12 Si atoms, it would take approximately 6.67 doublings or generations to reach that lower limit (a feature length of roughly 0.7nm). Since a doubling occurs every two years, we have the physical limit of Moore's law reached between 13 and 14 years from now. That's all the runway TSMC, ASML and their ilk have left. After that they hit a hard physical wall that has nothing to with economics. The great thing is if they're stopped, it will take China on the order of months to completely close whatever gap remains (if any) - it's much easier to catch up to a stationary target.

@tidalwave, your idea about synchrotrons really intrigued me. The issue I see with it (beyond the logistical matter of siting the fab adjacent to the synchrotron) is that synchs produce all manner of radiation besides UV, so some kind of filter would have to be employed to screen out the undesirable components of the synch's output. I think that synchrotrons would also produce UV of a shorter wavelength than ASML's EUV machines produce, which would allow smaller node sizes. The great thing there is that only the filter or the average particle energy in the synchrotron would have to be changed to get the desired wavelength of UV light, instead of having to design a light source de novo. It really is a neat idea and I hope Chinese scientists are looking into it.

The US is investigating it:
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Quantum mechanic will kicks in around 4nm. Not sure how that goes with 3nm as heisenberg uncertainty principal deal with particle and wave duality exist.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
As of today, the leading edge chip is 7nm. TSMC has 120 days before US new restriction comes into effect. During this time Huawei can stockpile the parts before SMIC 7nm come onboard.

Huawei Kirin 1000 supposedly on 5nm. Looks like its not going to happen.
Its critical for China to beat up on apple, qualcomm to stall the 5nm progress so everybody stay put with 7nm. Ban mediatek and samsung 5nm into China.

Everything is relative. Of course 5G can be realized with only 7nm as long as your competitor dont have faster parts.

A strategy of keeping everyone in the world at 7nm won't work.

There are clear benefits in terms of performance, cost and power consumption for 5nm chips.
The only caveat is that you need to have large production volumes to justify the high upfront design cost.
But there are at least 10 different companies who want TSMC 5nm for their chips.

Giving this a lot of thought and looking at the TSMC 5nm roadmap below, here is what I think:

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If China still wants to remain at the centre of the technology manufacturing industry, it still has to allow ANY 5nm chip into China as long as it is re-exported. It should be easy to police this because the number of 5nm chips and technology manufacturers is small.

But in terms of China's domestic market, I can see some benefits in potentially limiting 5nm chips to Chinese consumers.

1. For 5G chips, I don't see any reason why other Chinese companies can't design their own 5nm 5G chips like Huawei.
That will hurt Qualcomm, Apple, Mediatek - whilst building up Xiaomi/Oppo/Vivo/Spreadtrum as competitors.
And chip design is one of the easier parts to tackle.
So it would be feasible to ban the sale of foreign-designed 5G 5nm chips, but allow Chinese-designed 5nm chips (made by TSMC) for sale in China. Eventually we should see Chinese companies placing the majority of global orders for 5G chips, and they would be Chinese-designed.

2. For CPUs, Chinese CPU design doesn't look too bad. So restrictions of foreign 5nm chips of Chinese consumers should depend on how fast Chinese fabs can be developed and how much capacity they have.

3. For GPUs, JingJia looks like it is still way behind Nvidia and AMD
So I think Nvidia and AMD GPUs should still be sold to Chinese consumers.
But a lot more resources need to go to Jingjia and other GPU designers so they can catch up to at least SMIC 14nm/7nm.
At that point, it may make sense to ban sales of NVidia and AMD GPUs to Chinese consumers.

4. For Broadcomm network signal processors, I'm on the fence.
They were bought out by Avago based in Singapore, but it looks fairly simple to design replacements as their chips look simple.

But all this doesn't stop TSMC and the other foreign chipmaker trying to get onto 5nm as fast as possible, because there is still the rest of the world to serve.

Overall, it would serve notice on every non-American company that they need to accelerate development of technology products with no US content. In terms of TSMC, it's probably too late for the upcoming 3nm, but it may be feasible for the following 2nm node to do this.
 
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tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
A strategy of keeping everyone in the world at 7nm won't work.

There are clear benefits in terms of performance, cost and power consumption for 5nm chips.
The only caveat is that you need to have large production volumes to justify the high upfront design cost.
But there are at least 10 different companies who want TSMC 5nm for their chips.

Giving this a lot of thought and looking at the TSMC 5nm roadmap below, here is what I think:



If China still wants to remain at the centre of the technology manufacturing industry, it still has to allow ANY 5nm chip into China as long as it is re-exported. It should be easy to police this because the number of 5nm chips and technology manufacturers is small.

But in terms of China's domestic market, I can see some benefits in potentially limiting 5nm chips to Chinese consumers.

1. For 5G chips, I don't see any reason why other Chinese companies can't design their own 5nm 5G chips like Huawei.
That will hurt Qualcomm, Apple, Mediatek - whilst building up Xiaomi/Oppo/Vivo/Spreadtrum as competitors.
And chip design is one of the easier parts to tackle.
So it would be feasible to ban the sale of foreign-designed 5G 5nm chips, but allow Chinese-designed 5nm chips (made by TSMC) for sale in China. Eventually we should see Chinese companies placing the majority of global orders for Chinese-designed 5G chips

2. For CPUs, Chinese CPU design doesn't look too bad. So restrictions of foreign 5nm chips of Chinese consumers should depend on how fast Chinese fabs can be developed and how much capacity they have.

3. For GPUs, JingJia looks like it is still way behind Nvidia and AMD
So I think Nvidia and AMD GPUs should still be sold to Chinese consumers.
But a lot more resources need to go to Jingjia and other GPU designers so they can catch up to at least SMIC 14nm/7nm.
At that point, it may make sense to ban sales of NVidia and AMD GPUs to Chinese consumers.

4. For Broadcomm network signal processors, I'm on the fence.
They were bought out by Avago based in Singapore, but it looks fairly simple to design replacements as the chips looks simple.

But all this doesn't stop TSMC and the other foreign chipmaker trying to get onto 5nm as fast as possible, because there is still the rest of the world to serve.

Overall, it would serve notice on every non-American company that they need to accelerate development of technology products with no US content. In terms of TSMC, it's probably too late for the upcoming 3nm, but it may be feasible for the following 2nm node to do this.
What you proposing is exactly US government strategy. Kill Huawei by blocking it from accessing 5nm and let Vivo, Xiaomi , Lenovo, other Chinese firms thrive by propagating US semiconductor leadership.


Heresy
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
your idea about synchrotrons really intrigued me. The issue I see with it (beyond the logistical matter of siting the fab adjacent to the synchrotron) is that synchs produce all manner of radiation besides UV, so some kind of filter would have to be employed to screen out the undesirable components of the synch's output. I think that synchrotrons would also produce UV of a shorter wavelength than ASML's EUV machines produce, which would allow smaller node sizes. The great thing there is that only the filter or the average particle energy in the synchrotron would have to be changed to get the desired wavelength of UV light, instead of having to design a light source de novo. It really is a neat idea and I hope Chinese scientists are looking into it.


Similar to the LPP generation environment. When zinc droplet bring zapped by laser, all kinds of radiation being generated. The EUV mirror surrounds this and it only reflected EUV light and nothing else. So its a filter already.

To prevent particle like ions, electrons from damaging the mirror. Superconducting magnets being used to channel those particles away from mirror surface.

To prevent high speed neutral atoms from damaging surface, buffer gas used to slow and block them.
 

SoupDumplings

Junior Member
Registered Member
Similar to the LPP generation environment. When zinc droplet bring zapped by laser, all kinds of radiation being generated. The EUV mirror surrounds this and it only reflected EUV light and nothing else. So its a filter already.

To prevent particle like ions, electrons from damaging the mirror. Superconducting magnets being used to channel those particles away from mirror surface.

To prevent high speed neutral atoms from damaging surface, buffer gas used to slow and block them.

Hi tidalwave, sorry for spamming the questions (let me know if it gets annoying), but I just found this tweet. How long do you think the stockpile will last?

Also, does SMIC use US technology? Will this impact their ability to produce the pseudo 7nm chips?
 

hullopilllw

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hi tidalwave, sorry for spamming the questions (let me know if it gets annoying), but I just found this tweet. How long do you think the stockpile will last?

Also, does SMIC use US technology? Will this impact their ability to produce the pseudo 7nm chips?
Of course, KLA and LAM holds monopoly.

Its like banning X company from purchasing electrical switch board from all electrical contractor worldwide which use JOTUN/DUPONT powder coating.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Hi tidalwave, sorry for spamming the questions (let me know if it gets annoying), but I just found this tweet. How long do you think the stockpile will last?

Also, does SMIC use US technology? Will this impact their ability to produce the pseudo 7nm chips?
With additional 120 days for TSMC cranked out parts for Huawei that plus what Huawei already in stored, i read a report somehwere that Huawei could last two yrs. Enough time for SMIC to come out with new process
Also in the pipeline is China own lithography equipment, supposedly debut this year.
But overall, its a war and the clock is ticking

SMIC is supported.by Chinese government, it will go rogue against US orders. Those equipments by US companies can be obtained from other channels.
Buy from second hand. They are not state of arts.
Confisticate TSMC fab in Nanjing if have to.
Fujian fab for Dram full of equipments is sitting idle, they can sell those.
 
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