General ship propulsion

montyp165

Senior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Dear Sirs:

The primary reason the Enterprise used 8 A2W reactors is that AT the TIME (late 1950's to early 1960's), those were the only proven designs available. By the time the Nimitz was designed (late 1960's to early 1970's) civilian and shipboard nuclear reactors had been scaled up to the point where only 2 were required instead of the original 8.

Another problem with the choice of the particular reactor design (PWR's - pressurized water reactors) is that it limited the conditions in the steam generators to below the critical temperature of water, thus limiting thermal efficiency and power that could be extracted.

That problem has plagued pressurized- and boiling-water reactors ever since, though there have been proposals to provide special channel within GE's boiling-water reactors (BWR's) for superheating steam, no commercial system has yet been fielded.

For China to have successfully built its own 2nd or 3rd? generation, naval propulsion reactors (for the 093 and 094 class submarines), means that it has probably achieved the technical level of the US in the 1970's or 1980's (using a lot of what they learned from the commercial power reactors they have been building).

As to the PLAN's indigenous Naval Gas Turbines, the progress made (or claimed) has been encouraging although no new-build designs use them.

In comparison, China builds many sea-going vessels using commercial diesel designs made in China.

Those vessels bring us back to Crobato's CODAD vs CODAG situation.

We can sum up the PLAN's situation like this, for extended cruising its vessels will probably need medium or high-speed diesels as the primary propulsion units, and (when this becomes possible) use gas turbines for higher power needs.

As they have not yet done this on their latest and fastest building new vessel (the 054A frigate, which given its limited displacement really needs a light power plant), we are forced to conclude that a suitable gas turbine power plant is not yet ready.

The Indian Talwar-class is a good point of comparison, they use a DS-71 gas turbine as their primary powerplant, which is in all likelihood smaller than the UGT-25000/DA/N-80 turbines that were just recently fully indigenized, so my impression is the WS-10 naval turbine will be the most likely turbine upgrade to the 054 series frigates.
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

this is an article on GT-25000 or QC-280 in China, it claims that they have achieved 95% indigenization on it. Which if you think about is still pathetic since they've spent so much time and effort on it already. They say that the domestically developed turbine will be finished in September of 2012.
黑龙江争当燃汽轮机产业“领跑者” (2010-05-20)
  黑龙江省燃汽轮机产业发展迅速。目前,哈尔滨703所、哈尔滨汽轮机厂与中石油西气东输管道公司已签订30兆瓦级燃驱压缩机组研制协议。今年,全国重型燃汽轮机需求量为36台,哈尔滨汽轮机厂已签订25台。东安发动机(集团)公司燃汽轮机发电机组产业园建设已进入设备购置安装调试阶段,今年将在去年销售10台的基础上,预计增加到50台,可形成产值约10亿元。
记者从省工信委了解到,预计未来几年,全国需要大功率燃驱压缩机组约120台。按平均每台加配套部件约1亿元左右计算,到“十二五”末期将形成约120亿元产值。中石油西气东输管道工程已全面开工建设,海上油田、大型飞机、船舶动力、国防建设等行业对大型燃汽轮机的需求量将不断增加。按照国家节能减排的要求,重点扶持发展节能环保装备,燃汽轮机一氧化碳、氮排放近乎为零,成为高科技含量的重要清洁能源动力装备。“十二五”期间小型燃汽轮机需求量约300台,平均每台500~600万元,可形成产值15亿~20亿元。燃汽轮机和燃汽轮机发电机组作为清洁能源动力,市场需求前景广阔,这为燃汽轮机产业的发展带来了良好的发展机遇。
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东安发动机(集团)有限公司100千瓦微型燃汽轮机发电机已列入国家863计划,2012年完成研制可投入生产。为满足市场需求,东安燃汽轮机发电机基地正在建设中,建成后将成为我国最大的小型燃汽轮机发电机组研发生产基地。
中国第一重型机械集团公司、哈尔滨北方特种车辆制造有限责任公司、齐齐哈尔和平北方机械制造有限责任公司等大型企业,多年来一直利用军工大型先进设备为燃汽轮机制造业配套加工零部件,目前已形成良好的配套关系。为建立全省燃汽轮机和燃汽轮机发电机组研发、制造、配套体系,形成研发制造配套合理分工协作,奠定了良好的发展空间。
 

Orthan

Senior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

this is an article on GT-25000 or QC-280 in China, it claims that they have achieved 95% indigenization on it. Which if you think about is still pathetic since they've spent so much time and effort on it already. They say that the domestically developed turbine will be finished in September of 2012.

If it is their first gas-turbine, its understandable. USSR had decades to build that tech. China cant develop it in an instance.
 

Orthan

Senior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Germany has signed an several agreements with china, including one in which Siemens and shanghai electric group agree to a joint 3.5 billion US$ R&D program on steam and gas turbines.

Could this have impact on china´s military propulsion technology? what does it tell about current china´s efforts?
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Possibly, there was also an agreement last year with mtu to develop turbofan engine for C919. I think that they are already locally producing the latest disel marine engines. Gas turbines were withheld for a while but I guess since the domestic programs and cooperations with Ukrainians are going well now, the Western companies want a slice of the pie.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Chinese indigenous naval engines

I think Chinese naval ship building is limited by the availability of modern naval propulsion systems for its ships, currently french/Ukraine systems are used mainly on Chinese navy warships how far is the Chinese navy from makings it own home made proulsion systems? What programmes are underway and by which company?

if china want to build LPD and LHD and Carriers then it must master the navys engine technology
 

Lion

Senior Member
Re: Chinese indigenous naval engines

I think Chinese naval ship building is limited by the availability of modern naval propulsion systems for its ships, currently french/Ukraine systems are used mainly on Chinese navy warships how far is the Chinese navy from makings it own home made proulsion systems? What programmes are underway and by which company?

if china want to build LPD and LHD and Carriers then it must master the navys engine technology

I don't think that is the problem... If you look into China Naval thread, you can see 054A Frigate chunk out like hotcakes, not including original the 2 054.. It is still continue build with no end.

Despite China has a growing and huge military budget, doesn't mean they will start spending unwisely and lavishly. They are still very cautious with their acquiring.

PLAN grow with a plan. They want all their system to wired/intergrate and work as a whole unit. Once a system works , proven and fits their bill. Then they will build it in large number. The delay of serial production of certain unit is more or less do with training, wired out the problem and letting the crew getting familiar and skill in the new system.
 

tphuang

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Re: Chinese indigenous naval engines

I think Chinese naval ship building is limited by the availability of modern naval propulsion systems for its ships, currently french/Ukraine systems are used mainly on Chinese navy warships how far is the Chinese navy from makings it own home made proulsion systems? What programmes are underway and by which company?

if china want to build LPD and LHD and Carriers then it must master the navys engine technology

Just combining this with our propulsion thread. If you follow this, you'd know that they have already mastered the capability to locally produce QT-25000 for 052C, Pielstick engine for 054A and have some indigenous gas turbines ready/almost ready for other ships. For the larger ships, they have been locally producing diesel engines for a long time, so that's not a problem. Even for something like 022, they have produced their own version of Kamewa waterjet.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

I think the situation with Marine Gas turbines is that for naval applications, LM-2500+ sized, compact systems is bit of a problem.

They have a full family in development from WS-10 core.

for bigger marine gas turbines, actually I dont see a problem, Shanghai Electric and Dongfang Electric build some pretty competitive combined cycle power plant turbine sets. 2 sets of their typical set could easily provide the main propulsion elements for a carrier.
 
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