General ship propulsion

man overbored

Junior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

You may be right. On line sources conflict. Navsource, a pretty reliable source of information, has the shaft running directly off of the turbines and Wikipedia agrees while FAS has two geared turbines. I am voting you are correct.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

looks like the UGT-25000 is finally fully localized in China, if you remember a while ago, China got ToT and local production for this gas turbine. Well, it's out now as QC/D-280. This should be used for future Chinese warships. One of this was already tested on 169 (it should still be on there).

We know that QC-280 is from UGT-25000, because the report of this gas turbine appeared in Xi'an Aero-Engine's securities report (short version found here
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) and Xi'an was known to be localizing/producing UGT-25000.
This is the part on QC-280
(1)项目基本情况
燃气轮机作为一种先进的动力装置,其研制和开发一直受到世界各国的高度
重视,水面舰船的主动力采用燃气轮机已经成为各发达工业国家舰船动力发展的
方向,同时,燃气轮机还可广泛应用于以天然气为燃料的联合循环电站、调峰电
站、移动式电站、输气管道的泵站等。
目前,国内应用的燃气轮机主要用于发电,少部分用于油气田的注水、进气、
增压以及舰船和坦克动力,绝大多数为进口机组,在国内现在装机发电的燃气轮
机总装机容量中,国产部分只占约7%。燃气轮机属于重大核心装备,如果长期
依赖进口,在关键技术上受制于人,不利于我国燃气轮机动力产业及相关产业的
健康、快速发展。
燃气轮机包括燃气发生器与动力涡轮两个组成部分,其中燃气发生器结构、
制造技术与航空发动机类似,本公司依托本身具有的先进航空发动机制造技术,
已经顺利完成了30 兆瓦级燃气轮机燃气发生器国产化研制工作,基本具备了30
兆瓦级燃气轮机的生产能力建设条件。
QC280/QD280 燃气轮机是30 兆瓦级的燃气轮机,QC280 燃气轮机为舰船用燃
气轮机、QD280 燃气轮机为QC280 燃气轮机的工业改型燃气轮机,同属国际先进
的第三代燃气轮机。根据市场需求,结合本公司发展总体规划,本项目建设目标
为形成QC280/QD280 燃气轮机达到20 台份/年的生产能力,并形成较为通畅的生
产线,并承担燃气轮机整机试车任务。
(2)项目发展前景
从产业发展看,燃气轮机属于重大核心装备,如果长期依赖进口,在关键技
术上受制于人,不利于我国燃气轮机动力产业及相关产业的健康、快速发展。
从市场容量看,我国新世纪四大工程中“西气东输”、“西电东送”、“南水北
调”等三大工程均需要大量30 兆瓦级工业型燃气轮机,同时我国舰船制造业的
健康快速发展需要大量30 兆瓦级舰船燃气轮机,我国已成为世界最大的燃气轮
机潜在市场。未来几年,随着国内市场的逐步开发,30 兆瓦级燃气轮机的市场
需求会进一步稳定发展,预计未来几年国内30 兆瓦级燃气轮机市场需求将会达
到20~45 台/年。
(3)投资总额及融资安排
本项目固定资产投资63,458 万元,其中建设投资49,958 万元,利用原有固
定资产13,500 万元,流动资金利用公司自筹资金解决。本次拟投入募集资金
49,958 万元。
(4)经济效益分析
本项目具有较好的经济效益,预计税后总投资内部收益率约为12.47%,项
目增量投资投资回收期(所得税前)为7.9 年(含建设期),本项目盈亏平衡点
为59.12%,有一定的抗风险能力。综上所述,在现有的价格体系及计算基准下,
本项目的各项经济指标都满足评价基本要求,有一定的经济效益,并具有一定的
抗风险能力,从财务评价分析,本项目可行。
(5)结论
本项目的建设将直接促进国内燃气轮机制造技术、行业的健康、快速发展,
将填补国产30 兆瓦级燃气轮机市场空白。考虑本项目属于科技领先型项目、配
套服务型项目、公共领域市场化运作项目,为具有高技术附加值、高额利润回报、
市场风险相对较小的优良项目。通过本项目的建设,本公司将处于国内30 兆瓦
级燃气轮机生产能力的领先地位,极大缓解我国燃气轮机主要依靠进口的不利局
面,有力的支持我国石油业、造船业等的健康、快速发展。
本项目建设方案符合航空工业结构调整方向、符合公司发展总体规划,丰富
了公司的产品线,增加了公司的利润收入,提升了公司的整体市场竞争力,有良
好的社会效益和经济效益。
本方案投资估算组成合理,投资能够满足本项目建设需求,可以保障燃气轮
机生产能力建设项目的顺利进行。投资估算考虑了一定的动态因素。
talks about both QC-280 (which is for naval ships) and QD-280 (which is for electric generation), it says that the current goal is to be able to ramp up the production to 20 units of this a year.

and here is the website for it
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QD280燃机是在舰用燃机基础上研发的工业型燃机。该机已经舰上考核使用,性能和可靠性良好。输出功率28670 kW,热效率37%,空气流量 86.7 kg/s,总增压比18,排气温度500℃,首翻期寿命为25000小时。可用于管输动力、地面发电、热电联供等。
some performance, output is 28670 kw. around 39000 shp.
thermal efficiency is 37%
gas flow is 86.7 kg/s
exhaust gas temperature is 500 C
Initial overhaul after 25000 hours
 
Last edited:

Engineer

Major
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

looks like the UGT-25000 is finally fully localized in China, if you remember a while ago, China got ToT and local production for this gas turbine. Well, it's out now as QC/D-280.
I thought it was domestic. Now I'm disappointed.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

This is a release from Xi'an Aero Engine PLC on gas turbine. It seems like XAE is responsible is a major supplier in QC-280, which is the gas turbine in discussion here. Some big brass from the navy showed up. A pretty important day in the history of PLAN and engine makers.
公司首台装备机燃气发生器发运
9月23日,公司中厂门前彩球飘扬、鲜花锦簇,首台装备机燃气发生器发运仪式隆重举行。

  海装舰艇部副部长、海装舰艇部处长、中国工程院院士闻雪友、海装西安局副局长、海装沈阳局助理、中船重工703所副所长李延涛、哈尔滨汽轮机厂有限责任公司副总经理姚宏伟、海军驻哈尔滨703所军事代表室总代表、海军驻西安地区航空军事代表室总代表、中航工业发动机非航空产品部部长史景明和公司党委书记万多波出席了发运仪式。

  仪式上,海军驻西安地区航空军事代表室总代表与公司党委书记万多波签署首台装备机燃气发生器履历本。

  海装舰艇部副部长、海装西安局副局长、中航工业发动机非航空产品部部长史景明分别在讲话中对公司完成首台装备机装备机燃气发生器研制生产并顺利发运交付给予高度赞扬,希望公司继续发扬积极热情的工作态度以及一流的技术水平,认真完成后续工作。

  万多波在讲话中对海军驻西安地区航空军事代表室及上级机关对公司的大力支持表示感谢,对参与首台装备机装备机燃气发生器研制生产的单位付出的辛勤劳动并取得的成绩给予肯定,表示公司将进一步发扬高昂的士气,积极认真工作,确保国家武器装备建设需要。

  海装舰艇部首长,以及参加仪式的领导共同为首台装备机燃气发生器发运剪彩。随着万多波宣布首台装备机燃气发生器启运,承载公司无数人心血的首台装备机燃气发生器起运出厂。
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Good to hear that the QC-280 is now ready for full production, now if the R0110 is finalized that would be even better news.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

I'm pretty sure natural circulation is used on other nuclear reactor designs. Most modern nuclear reactor designs are a mix of natural circulation and pump, the latter used in emergency or in high power settings. Even if a reactor is not advertised as natural circulation, some subs is said to be able to operate with natural circulation at low power settings.

According to this and some other sources, Narwhal had a single turbine that is directly shafted to the propeller but I guess its probably a myth.

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Natural circulation is now standard on submarine reactors for all but the highest power settings. Normal cruising is accomplished without use of coolant pumps. This was pioneered on Narwhal's S5G reactor and scaled up to the later S8G in operational use.
Narwhal had a single power turbine and no reduction gears. In order to make sufficient horsepower at a low enough speed not to cavitate the prop, the turbine was simply immense. This was it's drawback, and why that feature was never repeated.

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snake65

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

By 1962, natural circulation reactor was valued mainly for it's inherent quiteness; reactor pumps had been a major source of noise. With a quite reactor, it was natural to avoid gearing altogether; Narwhal used a direct-drive turbine. A somewhat faster-running and less efficient propeller was accpeted. Because the S5G was more powerful than the S5W of the Sturgeons, the designers did not expect to loose much speed from either lost efficiency or considerable additional displacement.
More generally, the design philosophy was to treat causes of noise rather than the symptoms. Those sources that could not be eliminated altogether (like gearing) could be shut down at some speeds or could be slowed down; often the noise generated is proportional to the square of RPM. In some cases, equipment could be changed to avoid noise in the first place.
For example, Narwhal had a circulating water scoop. Other subs used pumps to circulate condenser water at all speeds, but the scoop (roughly analogous to an airplane's air intake) sufficed at any speed above very low. No main circulating pumps were needed. The concept was tested on board Scorpion. The long pipe involved became unacceptable under SUBSAFE rules; it was never duplicated in any other submarine. Turbogenerators were drastically slowed down.
Narwhal was quite succesful, when she was completed; however, she was not suitable for further production (e.g. because of the scoop problem). Instead, her NCR power plant became importan element of the CONFORM submarine proposed in 1968-69.

Norman Friedman
 

Wolverine

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

By 1962, natural circulation reactor was valued mainly for it's inherent quiteness; reactor pumps had been a major source of noise. With a quite reactor, it was natural to avoid gearing altogether; Narwhal used a direct-drive turbine. A somewhat faster-running and less efficient propeller was accpeted. Because the S5G was more powerful than the S5W of the Sturgeons, the designers did not expect to loose much speed from either lost efficiency or considerable additional displacement.
More generally, the design philosophy was to treat causes of noise rather than the symptoms. Those sources that could not be eliminated altogether (like gearing) could be shut down at some speeds or could be slowed down; often the noise generated is proportional to the square of RPM. In some cases, equipment could be changed to avoid noise in the first place.
For example, Narwhal had a circulating water scoop. Other subs used pumps to circulate condenser water at all speeds, but the scoop (roughly analogous to an airplane's air intake) sufficed at any speed above very low. No main circulating pumps were needed. The concept was tested on board Scorpion. The long pipe involved became unacceptable under SUBSAFE rules; it was never duplicated in any other submarine. Turbogenerators were drastically slowed down.
Narwhal was quite succesful, when she was completed; however, she was not suitable for further production (e.g. because of the scoop problem). Instead, her NCR power plant became importan element of the CONFORM submarine proposed in 1968-69.

Norman Friedman

Would such a reactor be suitable for carrier propulsion? Of course, with 2 or 4 units or whatever.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Would such a reactor be suitable for carrier propulsion? Of course, with 2 or 4 units or whatever.

Is it worth the effort? Is the rest of a carrier's propulsion quiet enough, or potentially quiet enough, to make such reactors worth while? We are talking four shafts and speeds that are dictated more by wind over the deck considerations than outright stealth. It is up to her escorts to sprint and drift, and to listen intently while drifting. Would not a sprinting escort give the game away too?
 
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