General ship propulsion

crobato

crobato

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

What you said is all very true.

But going back to that professor, his title alone is most interesting because of the words Closed Gas Turbine.

Basically this means a system that does not have a primary coolant circuit that is boiling a second and separate steam circuit, which then is used to turn around a steam turbine. Instead, the heated gases from the HTGR is used to turn a gas turbine directly.

Even if the power density itself is low, the system eliminates stages to form a single closed circuit, and the transmission of energy from reactor to turbine and generator is much more efficient, with much lower loss than the use of a standard dual circuit with coolant and steam.
 
S

Skywatcher

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Wouldn't a HGTR also make less noise (at least in theory), since it has less moving parts?
 
crobato

crobato

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Well yes, that too. But then again, its not just the number of moving parts, but how fast are they turning. Turbines will move a lot faster than electric motors, which means you need a reduction gear to bring down the revolutions to what is needed for a very slow turning propeller. Modern propellers like the skewed 7 bladed ones you see now, or the pumpjets, turn much more slowly compared to older six or four bladed propellers.

One of the US subs, the USS Narwhal, experimented without a reduction gear, but it probably didn't have the slow propeller. Nonetheless, this experiment is not repeated anymore.

Another way to deal with this is go turbine-electric. Instead of reduction gear, turbine turns a generator which turns an electric motor. Generator and motor has less moving parts than a reduction gear. This is what the French had on their Rubis, and it is rumored on the 091/093/094. However, the pics of a reduction gear setup may indicate this may not be true for the Hans, and if there was a Han that would use a turbo-electric drive, it probably was only a single one used for a testbed. But again, I like to see some confirmation on this issue rather than rumor and for all the subs mentioned as well.
 
tphuang

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

we have another article.
qc70articlejan15kl1.jpg

Basically, this one talks about for 68 days, a ship with low power requirement has been powered with this gas turbine (QC-70). It was 3 years to go from design to finishing testing. I think it could be talking about the LCAC in the future or maybe some other ships. Either way, it looks like China will finally be using its own gas turbines.
 
tphuang

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

continuing on R0-110 and QD-128, talks about first R0-110 starting final assembly on Feburary 3rd. And also mentions that the micro gas turbine WD-095 finished the design.
中国首台重型燃气轮机于2月3日开始总装！

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2008-2-15 20:24


2008年伊始，中国航空工业第一集团公司（以下简称中国一航）即宣告，由中国一航沈阳黎明航空发动机（集团）有限责任公司（以下简称一航黎明）与沈阳发动机设计研究所等单位联合研制的，中国第一台拥有自主知识产权的新型中等功率QD128燃气轮机，经过在大庆油田一航黎明北压电站的一年多运转试验，各项指标达到产品设计要求，正式推向市场。

与此同时，国家"863"R0110重型燃气轮机于今年2月3日开始总装，一航黎明R0110重型燃气轮机离商业运作近在咫尺。

2007年12月21日，由中国一航自行研制生产的中国首架自主知识产权喷气支线客机ARJ21-700飞机顺利实现总装下线。ARJ21-700新支线客机的发动机CF34-10A由美国GE航空公司研制，目前GE公司已经与一航黎明签订了合作生产CF34-10A发动机的框架协议，将来完全由一航黎明为ARJ21-700及后续机型提供动力装置，进而实现民机动力的中国制造目标。

在一航黎明，技术产品出新接二连三。这个曾是新中国第一台航空涡轮喷气发动机诞生地的企业，研制出了几十个型号的航空涡轮喷气发动机，创造了许多国内第一。继承着历史的自主精神底蕴，一航黎明在寓军于民、军民结合的战略思想指引下，在装备制造业的尖端领域，特别是航空发动机和燃气轮机方面，一航黎明打破少数发达国家的技术垄断，依靠自主创新研制出"昆仑"、"太行"系列发动机和QD128、QD70、QC185等多型燃气轮机。

一航黎明董事长、总经理庞为倡导，注重发挥核心技术专长，集中力量在航空及延伸产品的开发生产上下功夫。要干别人干不了的活，开发生产具有国际竞争力的产品，这就需要自主创新。在新时期，这家国有军工企业重整思想出路，以企业开放文化思维为精神统率，在核心技术专长领域中，聚合众多国内科研院所，联合攻关。同时，一航黎明参与世界500强企业的合资合作，学习对方的先进管理经验，消化吸引先进技术。正是孜孜不倦的自主努力，在装备制造业命脉领域里，一航黎明走出强者步履，力争打造成世界一流的航空发动机生产科研基地和以透平机械制造技术为支撑的大型装备研制基地。

通用核心技术摘取制造业皇冠上的"明珠"

2007年年末，一航黎明传来成功摘取制造业皇冠上的"明珠"---燃气轮机QD128的消息。

经过六年多的自主研制及运行，2007年，运行在大庆北压电厂的QD128燃气轮机机组，成功完成1000小时长期试验试车任务。这是以一航黎明为主进行制造和总成的第一台具有我国全部知识产权的新一代燃气轮机。

燃气轮机是一种将化学能转变为机械能的动力装置，是当今世界上最新和最主要的动力机械。人类动力发展历史大致经历几个阶段：人力---马力---蒸汽机---燃气轮机。如果说，蒸汽机出现是人类工业革命开始的话，那么燃气轮机则是另一场技术革命。
一航黎明副总工程师崔荣繁介绍说："燃气轮机体现了一个国家的结构力学、材料学、气体动力学、工程热力学、转子动力学、流体力学、电子学、控制理论等学科研究水平和深入程度，集中了机械制造行业所有高精尖技术，因而被称为装备制造业皇冠上的明珠。"燃气轮机广泛应用于发电、船舶动力、机械驱动等领域，成为一个国家科技水平、军事实力、综合国力的重要标志之一，是关系到国家能源和国防建设的重要产业。

目前，世界上只有美、英、俄、法、德、日本等几个少数发达国家具备独立研制燃气轮机的能力，其核心技术一直被这些国家所垄断。

为了打破少数发达国家的技术封锁，发展我国的装备制造业，打造自主知识品牌。一航黎明联合沈阳发动机设计研究所等单位，在研制我国新型航空发动机的基础上，开始进行航空发动机改燃气轮机的研制工作。一项自主产品的研发，"难"可想而知。而对于这项高技术、高投入和高密集劳动的国际性产品的研制，一航黎明经历艰难的困境更超乎想象。用一航黎明人自己的话说，"我们当时无经验、无资金，技术上又处于新型航机技术尚未成熟"，研制曾长期徘徊不前。但一航黎明始终把发展燃气轮机产品作为企业战略转型的关键，千方百计筹措资金，投入技改，先后投入约1亿元资金，用时任总经理林左鸣的话说："屡战屡败、屡败屡战，不达目的，决不罢休！"

由1999年始，一航黎明每年的思路纲要之中都有燃气轮机研制的具体目标，并建立主管副总经理、项目经理、项目团队三级组织机构和攻关小组。2007年，燃气轮机被定为一航黎明第一号工作项目，力促QD128研制进程和商业化运作。

与轻型燃气轮机QD128一道，一航黎明也进入了R0110重型燃气轮机的自主研制加工制造领域，2007年8月已经完成"863"重型燃气轮机主要课题 "涡轮叶片精密铸造"攻关成果，进入"大型盘鼓件电子束焊接"的攻关中，一航"863"重型燃机课题组负责人介绍，在完成设计、材料工程应用、标准体系形成之后，"863"重型燃机课题全面进入了加工制造阶段。如此，一个自主品牌的重型燃气轮机正在向我们走来。

同时，一航黎明的微型燃气轮机WD-095也完成了研制。至此，一航黎明民用燃气轮机产品就研制开发出三大系列重型、轻型、微型，均拥有国内自主知识产权。
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M

man overbored

Junior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

A closed gas turbine is fine for a shore power installation where space and weight are not considerations. Yes they can be more efficient than a conventional open loop gas turbine as installed in combat ships today, but you have to ask what other combat capability you are sacrificing for the extra efficiency. If efficiency was the do-all end-all in naval ship propulsion we would see nothing but low to medium speed diesels. Size, weight, easy overhaul plus power to weight are other considerations today.
Gas turbines driving electrical generators are the future of warship propulsion. The next generation of naval weapons, railguns and directed energy weapons will require vast amounts of current. The propulsion plants we have today take mechanical power from the turbine and use reduction gears to create mechanical power at a prop. Electrical power is generated for normal ship systems. Modern weapons do not require the current the next generation will require. The solution it to build a ship with something resembling a municipal electrical grid that can rapidly switch current from propulsion to weapons to sensors as needed for what operations the ship is conducting. Gas turbines or nuclear reactors will produce mechanical energy to drive an alternator to feed this power grid. Propulsion will be accomplished by AC electric motors on the prop shafts. Turbine alternator sets can be lit off and brought on line or secured as power demand changes. So far only the RN with the Type 45 and the USN with the upcoming Zumwalt class are actively pursuing this form of distributed electrical system, making them the first ships able to ship these new weapons in the near future.
 
bd popeye

bd popeye

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tphuang

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

more news on R0-110
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I think this is also developed in Shenyang Liming, so just talks about going through with different project and reporting on the R0110 design and
2月22日，863重大项目R0110重型燃气轮机研制工作汇报会在一航动力所和一航黎明举行。国家科技部副部长曹健林、辽宁省副省长滕卫平、沈阳市副市长邹大挺、中国一航副总经理顾惠忠等上级机关领导，以及一航科技委刘大响等30名院士和专家参加了此次汇报工作。

一行人首先在一航动力所，现场观看听取了所长张健现场介绍的太行系列发动机、燃机等项目的研制情况。主管副所长李孝堂汇报了R0110燃机设计方面的工作。

随后，一行人前往该项目的总承制单位一航黎明。大家在装配厂房逐一观看了燃机部件，并听取了相关人员的介绍。曹健林副部长和滕卫平副省长在参观过程中询问相关问题，他们不时强调要真正弄懂燃机的各项原理，并在此基础上进行自主创新。

上午10点半左右，R0110重型燃气轮机项目汇报会在一航黎明正式召开。一航黎明总经理庞为首先对该项目的研制工作进行了汇报。随后，一航科技委刘大响院士等专家分别对项目进行了指导。

顾惠忠副总经理和邹大挺副市长在讲话中提到，R0110取得的阶段性成果，是自主创新与引进创新相结合的结果，是国家科技部、省市、集团大力协同的范例，也是军民结合、产学研结合的典范。他们分别表示中国一航和沈阳市将继续统筹安排、支持型号的后续工作。

滕卫平副省长在讲话中指出，R0110作为国家自主创新的成果，对缓解我国能源供应压力和节能减排具有重要意义。他非常关注R0110即将开展的试车工作，指出试车的成功将对国家、科技部以及省市对该项目的信心起到重要的作用。他希望全体参研人员精心准备，务必做到万无一失。此外，就燃机的后续发展等，他希望尽快组织验收；启动并继续在辽宁进行中、低热值燃机的研制。

曹健林副部长认为该项目是国家节能减排攻坚战中取得的重要成果，对国家科技工作、制造领域都增长了信心，也为大飞机、高推重比发动机等重点型号的研制树立了很好的榜样。他指示说，设计、加工和装配工作要密切配合，保证项目的又好又快发展。对于下一步的工作，曹副部长提出，要上下一条心，把握机遇将项目坚持下去；要全力以赴，保证试车的成功运行并拿出有说服力的数据；此外还要加快中、低热值燃机的相应工作；进一步加强研发，赶超世界先进水平；强化全国大联合，共同做好型号研制工作。他最后表态，科技部将积极推进该项目的验收，加强组织队伍，合理配制资源，全力推动国家经济的又好又快发展。
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more on this
据中国航空报报道：国家科技部863先进能源技术领域计划燃气轮机重大专项课题之一——R0110重型燃气轮机设计与研制项目于2002年10月正式立项，经过5年努力，已经取得突破性进展。目前燃机零件已经完成全部集件，进入总装配阶段；试车台各个系统已经完成各自静态调试，即将进入最后联调。预计今年3月完成整机装配，4月将进行点火试验验证。


R0110重型燃气轮机是“十五”期间863重大专项，“官产学研”联合模式发展。项目预算5亿。黎明与606所、清华大学、中科院工程热物理研究所、上海交通大学等单位组成设计研制项目联合体，借鉴国外技术，引进国外智力。R0110预期输出功率114500KW（150000马力，排水量接近1万吨的日本金刚级驱逐舰的总功率才100000万力），热效率36%。在RO110母型机基础上，可以实现60MW、160MW与200MW以上系列燃机。 R0110舰用型号论证工作已经开展，可以作为中型常规航空母舰的主动力。

R0110是我国自主研制的第一台重型燃气轮机，它的研制成功预示着我国将成为世界上第五个具备重型燃气轮机研制能力的国家。这对于提高我国的综合国力具有积极推动作用。他表示，中国一航将继续精心组织、统筹安排，确保研制工作万无一失。

曹健林对R0110重型燃气轮机项目给予高度评价。他指出，这个项目是我国节能减排攻坚战取得的一项重大成果，我们要进一步抓紧项目研制进度，加强基础研发，把自主创新的国策落到实处。

美国“尼米兹”级航母动力装置为2座通用电气公司的A4W/A1G压水堆和4台蒸汽轮机，反应堆热效率为25.6%，每个反应堆驱动2台蒸汽轮机，全舰总功率为26万马力。中国2台R0110重型燃气轮机即可实现30万马力。
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It talks about the fact that 2 R0-110 engine can produce 300K shp of power or 229 MW of power. Either way, Nimitz class only uses 260K of power.

I didn't think it would be used as any more than electricity generator before, but there are rumours that this will could be used for future PLAN carriers.
 
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maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

xinsrc_342020528150243724374.jpg


xinsrc_342020528150273488555.jpg

R0110重型燃气轮机剖析模型 [资料图片]
 
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M

man overbored

Junior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Big low speed diesels as used in container ships are the wrong tool for a warship. Number one, the accelerate and deccelerate very very slowly. A Nimitz class can usually out accelerate it's escorts! Such diesels turn at or below 100-105 rpm and are bolted to the shaft with no reduction gearing. The prop turns at crankshaft speed. To reverse one you have to stop the engine, and a tech has to reverse a gear on the cam shaft, then the engine is restarted. This process takes a couple of minutes to do. Big marine low speed diesels are fine for commercial ships. They are fuel efficient and work just fine for medium speed ships making long open ocean passages at a constant speed and constant shaft RPM ( in effect the power plant is optimized for a single speed and that's it ), but they do not have the sort of acceleration or flexibility needed for combat ships. Also, only two engines means limited redundancy. Last, they are noisy, meaning even an old sub will hear it coming miles away. Steam or gas turbine propulsion can be made much quieter than a big low speed diesel. You will also find that big combat ships have higher propeller rpms for the speeds they require than those diesels can deliver ( keep in mind that giants like that do not use reduction gears at all and adding a set would make the size and weight prohibitive ). The rpm of a Nimitz class is classified, but if you look back a bit you will see an Iowa class battleship made top speed at shaft speeds over 200 rpm. 30 kts came up at 205 rpm. Combat ships typically use higher shaft rpm than merchantmen. All of this ignors the huge internal reconfiguration needed to make a four shaft steam design accomodate a two shaft low speed diesel power plant.
Re-fitting the Russian boilers makes a lot more sense if that is what is happening.
 
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