General ship propulsion

crobato

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Some of the multi valve, supercharged/turbocharged four cycle marine diesels are quite capable of RPM that match that of turbines though. Seems like the Europeans are good at this.

Some warships use a multiple diesel (CODAD) arrangement, but most prefer the CODAG arrangment where the diesels are used for cruising and just about everything, and the turbines are used for boosts in speed.
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Big low speed diesels as used in container ships are the wrong tool for a warship. Number one, the accelerate and deccelerate very very slowly. A Nimitz class can usually out accelerate it's escorts! Such diesels turn at or below 100-105 rpm and are bolted to the shaft with no reduction gearing. The prop turns at crankshaft speed. To reverse one you have to stop the engine, and a tech has to reverse a gear on the cam shaft, then the engine is restarted. This process takes a couple of minutes to do. Big marine low speed diesels are fine for commercial ships. They are fuel efficient and work just fine for medium speed ships making long open ocean passages at a constant speed and constant shaft RPM ( in effect the power plant is optimized for a single speed and that's it ), but they do not have the sort of acceleration or flexibility needed for combat ships. Also, only two engines means limited redundancy. Last, they are noisy, meaning even an old sub will hear it coming miles away. Steam or gas turbine propulsion can be made much quieter than a big low speed diesel. You will also find that big combat ships have higher propeller rpms for the speeds they require than those diesels can deliver ( keep in mind that giants like that do not use reduction gears at all and adding a set would make the size and weight prohibitive ). The rpm of a Nimitz class is classified, but if you look back a bit you will see an Iowa class battleship made top speed at shaft speeds over 200 rpm. 30 kts came up at 205 rpm. Combat ships typically use higher shaft rpm than merchantmen. All of this ignors the huge internal reconfiguration needed to make a four shaft steam design accomodate a two shaft low speed diesel power plant.
Re-fitting the Russian boilers makes a lot more sense if that is what is happening.

I'm kind of confused on where this big low speed diesel idea is coming from. R0-110 is a big gas turbine. Although personally, I think they are more likely to go for QC-185 or QC-260 for future warships.
 

Quickie

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

I am quite convinced the cutaway view of the RO-110 engine in the posted picture above comes from an actual prototype RO-110 engine. Anyone knows better?
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

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国内首型具有完全自主知识产权的海军用燃机通过技术鉴定

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责任编辑:古新萍

2008年05月16日 【字体大小:大 中 小】


  4月28日,海军用某型燃气轮机在沈阳通过技术鉴定。作为国内首型具有完全自主知识产权的海军用航改燃机,顺利地按合同规定,按期保质完成该燃机的研制任务,满足技术指标。该型燃机的成功研制,对海军动力装备的发展具有重要的意义。

  国家国防科技工业局、总装军兵种装备部海军局、海装,中国第一航空集团公司等59个单位116名代表参加此次的技术鉴定会。通过有关资料审查、现场检查,听取研制工作相关报告。鉴定会专家组分别形成了相关审查意见。

  由31名专家组成的技术鉴定委员会主任委员,中科院工程热物理所蔡睿贤院士在会议闭幕式上宣读了该燃机技术鉴定意见。委员会认为该燃机研制资料齐全,内容完整、正确、协调、统一;燃机主要技术指标满足研制总要求;作为国内第一型具有完全自主知识产权的航改舰船用燃气轮机,整机综合指标达到国际先进水平;此外,依托太行发动机的研制试验技术,为今后的发展提供了有力保障。鉴定委员会一致同意该舰船用燃机通过技术鉴定并提出了后续工作的建议。(辽宁国防科工办)
basically talks about a gas turbine developed based on Taihang has passed the national technology review. It says that the performance of this turbine reaches world leading level. I'm not sure if this is referring to QC-70 or QC-185. Could be either one depending on what this review represents. QC-70 should be ready now, QC-185 probably has another 2 years to go.
 

tphuang

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

this is kind of interesting, it talks about the domestic version of GT-25000. It looks like they have finally indigenized this gas turbine after using it for a few years.
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this part of the article is pretty revealing on gas turbine in China
  一是非航空民品全面增长。去年销售收入为240亿元,同比增长25.4%,其中压缩机增长幅度接近80%;具有国际领先水平的5HP双转子压缩机开始小批量生产。4.5代TFT-LCD显示屏及模块生产取得里程碑式进展。“柴油发动机电子控制燃油喷射系统”得到国家产业化立项批复。先进高温合金精密成型件高技术产业化工程、球墨铸管、兆瓦级风力发电机组、锂离子电池等项目取得新进展。云马客车批量出口巴基斯坦。二是第三产业继续高速增长。实现销售收入214亿元,同比增长31%。房地产业配合新园区建设,采取退二进三、退城进郊的方式,充分利用有限的土地资源,用市场经济的方式,解决了部分航空产业发展资金不足的问题,形成了为航空产业服务配套的局面。飞行学校获得民航总局批复,航空公司组建已报批。三是航空科技创新园区蓬勃发展。上海民机产业基地、成都空天高技术产业基地、沈阳航空经济区等项目都取得重要进展。天津、合肥、深圳、贵州、南京、无锡等地园区的开发建设工作正在有序推进。四是燃气轮机产业发展势头良好。首台国产化GT25000燃气轮机已完成98%零部件制造,并投入总装和试车。QD128机组累计稳定运行超过3000小时。QD70A机组成功累计运行1000多小时。与山西签订了60兆瓦示范性节能减排燃机发电项目。
It said QD-128 has accumulated 3000 hours of operation. QD-70A has accumulated over 1000 hours. And the first domestic version of GT-25000 has now achieved 98% indigenization. And more interesting is the article shown in the attached photo. It says that the first domestic GT-25000 was installed on 169 (replaced the imported one) and as of October of 2007, it has accumulated 435 hours of operation.
 

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man overbored

Junior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

What you said is all very true.

But going back to that professor, his title alone is most interesting because of the words Closed Gas Turbine.

Basically this means a system that does not have a primary coolant circuit that is boiling a second and separate steam circuit, which then is used to turn around a steam turbine. Instead, the heated gases from the HTGR is used to turn a gas turbine directly.

Even if the power density itself is low, the system eliminates stages to form a single closed circuit, and the transmission of energy from reactor to turbine and generator is much more efficient, with much lower loss than the use of a standard dual circuit with coolant and steam.

The difficulty with this scheme for naval use is that those turbines are radioactive and must be inside the containment, making it very large and heavy. The US DOE has a similar experimental design under consideration at their Idaho facility.
 

man overbored

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

"One of the US subs, the USS Narwhal, experimented without a reduction gear, but it probably didn't have the slow propeller. Nonetheless, this experiment is not repeated "

No, Narwhal was the first sub with a natural circulation reactor. At normal power the reactor coolant pumps were secured and convection moved water through the system. This was a very quiet design, the quietest of the day and I would not state that this feature has not been repeated in subsequent designs. The Narwhal had two turbines and a single shaft so she most definitely had a reduction gear.
 

man overbored

Junior Member
Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

Some of the multi valve, supercharged/turbocharged four cycle marine diesels are quite capable of RPM that match that of turbines though. Seems like the Europeans are good at this.

Some warships use a multiple diesel (CODAD) arrangement, but most prefer the CODAG arrangment where the diesels are used for cruising and just about everything, and the turbines are used for boosts in speed.


The gas generator of a gas turbine turns in the neighborhood of 50,000 rpm while the free power turbine that spins the reduction gears turns at 25000-30000 rpm. A low speed diesel is defined to have an RPM under about 100. Medium speed diesels used in combat ships have RPM's ranging from 100 to 1000. Above 1000 rpm is a high speed diesel. Even the Audi R-10 turbo diesel race cars do not exceed about 5000 rpm. Most warship diesels make a couple of hundred RPM. Calculate the piston speed to see why, it is not safe on the rings and ring grooves to uses much more than a 4500 foot per minute piston speed.
 

le thi kieuoanh

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

why all the time old materials resurfaced? can we have updates without going back to the old stuff? eg. what ships have or will have w10a etc
 

crobato

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Re: PLAN ship propulsion thread

"One of the US subs, the USS Narwhal, experimented without a reduction gear, but it probably didn't have the slow propeller. Nonetheless, this experiment is not repeated "

No, Narwhal was the first sub with a natural circulation reactor. At normal power the reactor coolant pumps were secured and convection moved water through the system. This was a very quiet design, the quietest of the day and I would not state that this feature has not been repeated in subsequent designs. The Narwhal had two turbines and a single shaft so she most definitely had a reduction gear.

I'm pretty sure natural circulation is used on other nuclear reactor designs. Most modern nuclear reactor designs are a mix of natural circulation and pump, the latter used in emergency or in high power settings. Even if a reactor is not advertised as natural circulation, some subs is said to be able to operate with natural circulation at low power settings.

According to this and some other sources, Narwhal had a single turbine that is directly shafted to the propeller but I guess its probably a myth.

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