954A #33 was launched several days ago.
It's the second 054A launched by Huangpu Shipyards in the new 054A batch.
Last Saturday:
Tuesday:
Future PLAN orbat discussion
- Thread starter kwaigonegin
- Start date
It's the second 054A launched by Huangpu Shipyards in the new 054A batch.
Last Saturday:
Tuesday:
Isn't the Hangzhou the extensively modernised Sovremenny class destroyer of the Project 956A variant? They got rid of the semi-outdated pair of Soviet single SAM launchers and replaced these with VLS cells (and HQ16 mid-range SAM), the Moskit missile was also replaced with the YJ-12. It must have been an expensive upgrade, because the Russian Navy has not bothered to do the same sort of overhaul, even though it would make their Sovremenny class ships a lot more capable as air defence platforms.
Do we know if upgrades have been made, or are planned, for the other Sovremenny class destroyers in the PLAN?
Do we know if upgrades have been made, or are planned, for the other Sovremenny class destroyers in the PLAN?
Oh, thanks. I really messed up picking the wrong photo and then added the wrong description.
This is 136, two quad launching rack, 8 YJ-12s.
By now 136 and 137, the two original Type 956E vessels have all been mid-term upgraded. 138 and 139 the Type 956EMs have not yet.
Message said all the pre-052Cs will all be upgraded, but I would question the economic feasibility.
Off topic.
The Russians still have a Sovremenny planned for upgrades. But they have cooled on the class as a whole due to the problematic steam power train. Ten years ago one of the Sovs had a fire accident and killed a young sailor who made a heroic effort to put out the fire and save the ship. His name now shines in one of the modern corvettes that the Chinese recently had a joint exercise with.
However it does not seem like a problem for the Chinese to be keeping their steam powered ships, otherwise they would have dumped them along with their 051B/C.
As for upgrades, the Russians are upgrading their Udaloys extensively. Putting a new gun, UKSK VLS, new antiship missile launchers, new fire control radars and so on. Given the success of the first try, they have now approved the upgrades to the rest of the Udaloy class fleet, which is about seven ships, and a second ship has already begun.
I don't think those upgrades were that expensive, not cheap, but not expensive enough to deter the Russians which we know are very cost minded these days. They didn't modernize the Sovremennys because they question the logic of upgrading these troublesome ships, while the Udaloys with their gas turbines, are more reliable and maintainable. The Russians also went ahead and modernized their Tarantul corvettes, now an ongoing project. These boats have four Moskit/Sunburn missiles. The refit replaces them with 16 Uran/Switchblades. That's like four large supersonic missiles to 16 sea skimming subsonic missiles similar to a Harpoon or YJ-83.
I know that its a bit out of topic but it needs to be said. They will upgrade the two 052B, then the two 051C and the last two Sovremenny if past behavior is an indication.
Last edited:
there are a lot of resentment and complaining in Russian press about the the failure to fund the modernization of sovremenny, and letting them rust and be discarded Instead. The Chinese modernization of the Sovremenny is usually held up as examples or what reward a “caring attitude” about ships with substantial hull life left can bring.
the truth is unlike with China, Russia‘s top tier strategic needs do not require it to be prepared to fight a top tier naval power in the open sea In the near future. So russian naval objective is to preserve skill and capability rather than maintain force level.
Last edited:
That's interesting. I am not sure if I would agree with that view by the Russian press. The Russian ships have had propulsion problems with their steam engines, like the previous post said. They are also developing a new Lider class destroyer that is expected to be armed with the excellent S-500. Its still in development only, but that seems to be the way to go with air defense platforms.
I believe Russia's surface strategy is to treat the enclosed littoral waters (Baltic and Black seas) as part of an extended front against NATO. The most capable of their ships tend to be small and offensive focused. The goal is not to control the sea, but to deny its control by the enemy, so as to ward off amphibious attacks. In that vein, the Sovremennies can serve as an anti-ship asset. That said, they have no stealth to speak of and limited air defence, and would be a case of "fire your missiles first, or lose them".
I believe Russia's surface strategy is to treat the enclosed littoral waters (Baltic and Black seas) as part of an extended front against NATO. The most capable of their ships tend to be small and offensive focused. The goal is not to control the sea, but to deny its control by the enemy, so as to ward off amphibious attacks. In that vein, the Sovremennies can serve as an anti-ship asset. That said, they have no stealth to speak of and limited air defence, and would be a case of "fire your missiles first, or lose them".
Why? If Type 051 is indicative to how PLAN views life of ships then destroyers serve for 29 to 34 years. If we apply the same logic to modernized types in service then we get the following dates:
- 052/Harbin (1994) - 2023-28 (2-7 yrs left)
- 052/Qingdao (1996) - 2025-30 (4-9)
- 051B/Shenzhen (1999) - 2028-33 (7-12)
- 956E/Hangzhou (1999) - 2028-33 (7-12)
- 956E/Fuhzhou (2000) - 2029-34 (8-13)
- 052B/Guanghzou (2004) - 2033-38 (12-17)
- 052B/Wuhan (2004) - 2033-38 (12-17)
- 956EM/Taizhou (2005) - 2034-39 (13-18)
- 956EM/Ningbo (2006) - 2035-40 (14-19)
- 051C/Shenyang (2005) - 2034-39 (13-18)
- 051C/Shijiazhuang (2006) - 2035-40 (14-19)
- 1x 051B - 16x YJ-83, 16x HQ-7 >> 16x Y-12, 32x HQ-16
- 2x 956E - 8x Moskit, 48x Buk >> 8x Y-12, 32x HQ-16
- 2x 052B - 16x YJ-83, 48x Buk >> 16x YJ-83, 32x HQ-16
- 2x 956EM - 8x Moskit, 48x Buk >> 8x Y-12, 32x HQ-16
- 2x 051C - 8x YJ-83, 48x S-300F >> 16x YJ-83, 32x HQ-16
In a time of uncertainty one modernized 052B at sea is worth two 052Ds under construction.
Russian sources state that refit Udaloys will be anti-surface and anti-submarine vessels. The photos of modernized "Marshal Shaposhnikov" show that Silex missiles are retained and Urans are fired from launchers amidships. All photos show two guns which means that USKS is probably installed in the place of the bow Shtil/Tor launcher. Other than the gun it is the only other place where a VLS could be installed. Unless I see a photo with a single gun it means that Udaloys lose their SAMs and will have to rely on other ships in the fleet for air defense. Such modernization might be controversial but it would be extremely cheap because the most expensive work is always new installations. New main weapons (Kalibr, Onix, Zirkon, Uran) require external targeting anyway and everything else fits into pre-existing structures.
Chinese modernizations replace all electronics so upgrading SAMs is not a significant cost. The result is also a fully functional ship that is a better version of its old self. Russian modernization attempts to maximize value at minimal investment and the result is a specialized version that complements a surface task force but is incapable of acting individually.
As for Tarantuls - the ones in Baltic and Black Sea Fleets are being replaced in the next two years by new Karakurts and Buyans. The only ones left are eleven ships in the Pacific Fleet and those - along with three Nanuchkas - are very likely replaced by twelve 20381/20385 corvettes and four Karakurts majority of which will enter service by 2024. Tarantuls are useless obsolete ships and Urans are worse than Moskits for the kind of hit'n'run tactic which is the only thing Tarantuls are good at. They're awful for anything else. Could it be that one modernized ship has been taken by someone in the media for all of the ships being modernized?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shouldn't this entire last page be moved to one of the threads about Chinese older destroyers? What does it have to do with 054A?
PLAN has a clear line of responsibilities between destroyers and frigates: destroyers in charge of air defence and frigates for anti-submarine tasks.
With all the new destroyers since 052C equipped with ESA radar, the older types, even after mid-term upgrades, are much less efficient in air defence than the 052C/Ds. And they are even less capable in anti-sub missions 'cos their combat systems don't have enough capability to handle the modern towed sonar array and other electronics equipments.
So they are no more than enhanced Type 053Gs even after mid-term upgrades. Their inabilities of combat operation may be the Achilles' heel of the whole fleet.
That's why I'm not so optimistic about the economic feasibility of the upgrades for the pre-052C destroyers.
Absolutely OT response, but "Marshal Shaposhnikov" modernization is actually very different from what you wrote.
Here's the bit from Zvezda
and Twitter
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do we need a new thread to discuss PLAN MLUs? like "PLAN Ship MLU" or something? That way we can dump anything from what we think PLAN will do to their old ships to actual photos & records of PLAN ship MLU across all classes (including subs).