Future PLAN orbat discussion

MarKoz81 said:

Why? If Type 051 is indicative to how PLAN views life of ships then destroyers serve for 29 to 34 years. If we apply the same logic to modernized types in service then we get the following dates:

• 052/Harbin (1994) - 2023-28 (2-7 yrs left)
• 052/Qingdao (1996) - 2025-30 (4-9)
• 051B/Shenzhen (1999) - 2028-33 (7-12)
• 956E/Hangzhou (1999) - 2028-33 (7-12)
• 956E/Fuhzhou (2000) - 2029-34 (8-13)
• 052B/Guanghzou (2004) - 2033-38 (12-17)
• 052B/Wuhan (2004) - 2033-38 (12-17)
• 956EM/Taizhou (2005) - 2034-39 (13-18)
• 956EM/Ningbo (2006) - 2035-40 (14-19)
• 051C/Shenyang (2005) - 2034-39 (13-18)
• 051C/Shijiazhuang (2006) - 2035-40 (14-19)

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Does it make sense to really keep all these in service? It might be more trouble than its worth to actually upgrade all of these assets considering there are unique machinery and electronics in each class, even adapting crews to such different designs might prove inefficient. Harbin/Qindao/Shenzhen might as well be retired soon as even with further upgrades, they are too small to serve in any credible DDG role, yet still expensive to maintain for ASW compared to a 054 family.

j17wang said:

Does it make sense to really keep all these in service? It might be more trouble than its worth to actually upgrade all of these assets considering there are unique machinery and electronics in each class, even adapting crews to such different designs might prove inefficient. Harbin/Qindao/Shenzhen might as well be retired soon as even with further upgrades, they are too small to serve in any credible DDG role, yet still expensive to maintain for ASW compared to a 054 family.

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I predict 112 & 113 will be retired around 2025, or maybe transferred to Dalian Naval Academy as training ships. 167 will have at least 10 years to go, very likely still be used as the flagship of the Southern Theatre Command Navy.

blindsight said:

I predict 112 & 113 will be retired around 2025, or maybe transferred to Dalian Naval Academy as training ships. 167 will have at least 10 years to go, very likely still be used as the flagship of the Southern Theatre Command Navy.

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Actually 112 could still be the flagship of the Northern Theatre Command Navy even today.

j17wang said:

Does it make sense to really keep all these in service? It might be more trouble than its worth to actually upgrade all of these assets considering there are unique machinery and electronics in each class, even adapting crews to such different designs might prove inefficient. Harbin/Qindao/Shenzhen might as well be retired soon as even with further upgrades, they are too small to serve in any credible DDG role, yet still expensive to maintain for ASW compared to a 054 family.

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Harbin/Qingdao still brings benefits to the ASW role. Remember, part of their refits means they get the same standard modern bow sonar, TAS and VDS like everyone else. But compared to the 054A, they also get the sprint of gas turbines, which I suspect should be domestic by now, the original GE and Ukrainian gas turbines would and should have been replaced by domestic by now. They also have the advantage of having two helicopters, and 16 YJ-83 slant canisters, which you can replace some with YU-11 ASROC.

Recently they are spotted with the new circular SATCOMs, which means more electronic upgrades. As someone said, ships are more like network nodes now, regardless whether they are new or old hulls. The more nodes, the better.



113 spotted in the SCS involved in ASW activity. This was taken a few months ago.



Due to the limits of sonar ranges, in a sonar network, its better to have more nodes. This makes the light of the mass production of the 054A and 056A making sense.

There are more upgrades to these ships than people would look at the obvious, such as the radars and the short range SAMs. One not too talked about is that the ships has the Type 517 Yagis from the 052C/D. The Type 052 never had these before in its original configuration, they have the Type 518 L-band radar for long ranged search. The Type 517 did appear on the Type 051 Ludas, the 052 never had the original versions, and instead inherited the evolved 517s from the 052C/D. They can act as radar picket ships and use these radars to hunt for LO targets.

Another significant improvement is the installation of the Type 364 Sea Gull on the rear mast. Compared to the Type 364s installed on the Type 054A, the rear mast on the 052 is higher, which provides an extended radar horizon to spot for low flying threats. This radar is a big boost to the ship's defensive situational awareness.



Not the least, both Harbin/Qingdao are fitted with the full Type 726 electronic warfare suite that's the same standard as the 052C/D. This includes the 726-1 ESM, 726-2 ESM which is used for directional finding, 726-3 ECM and the 726-4 DLS. So its soft kill defenses are as good as any 052C/D.

This configuration still makes the ships useful for now despite their age.

May I suggest to the moderators if they can move all related posts to the new PLAN MLU thread so we can continue there.

Tam said:

Harbin/Qingdao still brings benefits to the ASW role. Remember, part of their refits means they get the same standard modern bow sonar, TAS and VDS like everyone else. But compared to the 054A, they also get the sprint of gas turbines, which I suspect should be domestic by now, the original GE and Ukrainian gas turbines would and should have been replaced by domestic by now. They also have the advantage of having two helicopters, and 16 YJ-83 slant canisters, which you can replace some with YU-11 ASROC.

Recently they are spotted with the new circular SATCOMs, which means more electronic upgrades. As someone said, ships are more like network nodes now, regardless whether they are new or old hulls. The more nodes, the better.

View attachment 79053

113 spotted in the SCS involved in ASW activity. This was taken a few months ago.

View attachment 79050

Due to the limits of sonar ranges, in a sonar network, its better to have more nodes. This makes the light of the mass production of the 054A and 056A making sense.

There are more upgrades to these ships than people would look at the obvious, such as the radars and the short range SAMs. One not too talked about is that the ships has the Type 517 Yagis from the 052C/D. The Type 052 never had these before in its original configuration, they have the Type 518 L-band radar for long ranged search. The Type 517 did appear on the Type 051 Ludas, the 052 never had the original versions, and instead inherited the evolved 517s from the 052C/D. They can act as radar picket ships and use these radars to hunt for LO targets.

Another significant improvement is the installation of the Type 364 Sea Gull on the rear mast. Compared to the Type 364s installed on the Type 054A, the rear mast on the 052 is higher, which provides an extended radar horizon to spot for low flying threats. This radar is a big boost to the ship's defensive situational awareness.

View attachment 79051

Not the least, both Harbin/Qingdao are fitted with the full Type 726 electronic warfare suite that's the same standard as the 052C/D. This includes the 726-1 ESM, 726-2 ESM which is used for directional finding, 726-3 ECM and the 726-4 DLS. So its soft kill defenses are as good as any 052C/D.

This configuration still makes the ships useful for now despite their age.

May I suggest to the moderators if they can move all related posts to the new PLAN MLU thread so we can continue there.

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Both 112 & 113 are still using LM2500s. China has imported some sort of commercial LM2500s and they can produce many parts for maintenance. Moreover, the 052s usually cruise with diesels anyway.

Gloire_bb said:

You already have 30...50 frigates, and 80 light frigates(corvettes) for that.
Main qualitative difference b/n upgraded destroyers and frigates is the much heavier missile salvo, as well as sheer size&authonomy.
Secondary difference - substantially better, on average, self-defense capability.

Final clue - we typically see them separately or together(often with frigates) training in SAGs.

Basically - rough approximation is that older destroyers fill the niche of "heavy strike frigates" now, flagships and ASuW reserve of the frigate force when the latter doesn't operate with blue water forces.

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We've seen YJ-12 installed on the 054AP for Pakistan Navy, so it's very possible that PLAN will replace all its 054As' YJ-83s with YJ-12s.

Thus the heavier missle advantage may not be very clear for all old destroyers(they may still have twice the numbers than the frigates).

blindsight said:

Both 112 & 113 are still using LM2500s. China has imported some sort of commercial LM2500s and they can produce many parts for maintenance. Moreover, the 052s usually cruise with diesels anyway.

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Well you cannot use commercial LM2500 for maritime application It has to work under corrosive condition so the compressor will be different !. so I am with TAM

iantsai said:

We've seen YJ-12 installed on the 054AP for Pakistan Navy, so it's very possible that PLAN will replace all its 054As' YJ-83s with YJ-12s.

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(1)YJ-83/YJ-12 aren't plug-and-play, like, say, Taiwanese ones. It's possible to change them through modernization(1 for 2 at that), of course, but it is an exchange of capability set(i.e. sidegrade).
(2)For multi-purpose frigate YJ-83s make more sense(they're more numerous per unit of weight, more universal, and more usable). Bigger =/= better. YJ-83 is likely to be enough for everything you're likely to get a shot at within 1st Chain. Large supersonic missiles aren't overly suitable to engage smaller targets, for example - and you're getting fewer on 054AP.
(3)you already have several much larger platforms at your disposal, - with already established crews, with 1-2 decades of designed life left, and which were originally meant to do just that(and carry 8-16 heavy missiles from day 1 anyways).

All the advantages, no disadvantages.

iantsai said:

We've seen YJ-12 installed on the 054AP for Pakistan Navy, so it's very possible that PLAN will replace all its 054As' YJ-83s with YJ-12s.

Thus the heavier missle advantage may not be very clear for all old destroyers(they may still have twice the numbers than the frigates).

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Not necessarily twice. 136 & 137 only got 8.

Hendrik_2000 said:

Well you cannot use commercial LM2500 for maritime application It has to work under corrosive condition so the compressor will be different !. so I am with TAM

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Most of the main parts have a pretty long life span. Just like the A/C in your home, most of the time it's just some cheap parts such as the brushes that brings down the whole unit. If you know how to fix it, it actually can last very long. The same here. China can produce a lot of parts that wear the most, so for basic maintenance, it's not an issue. The LM2500s don't work on the 052s as hard as some people think.