Future PLAN orbat discussion

Why would your list of military articles differ significantly from PPP cost? Why would the Chinese economy have a certain level of efficiency at producing one class of good, and then have that efficiency cut in half when producing another class with significant overlap?
The entire point of comparative cost advantage is that different economies will have cost advantages when it comes to producing different classes of goods. Factors such as differences in access to natural resources, economies of scale, relevant supply chains, human capital, etc all affect the relative costs of producing goods between different economies. That is why free trade is economically efficient, as a country cab export goods where it enjoys a comparative advantage and import goods where it does not. China may enjoy a significant advantage in building ships, but not so much for building airplanes.
 
You do realise that we can already see the following modern warships laid down or newly commissioned.

1. 3/6 Carriers
2. 8/24 Type-55
3. 25/24 Type-52C/D
4. 32/36 Type-54

In other words, you are saying that the Chinese naval shipbuilding programme, is going to come to a crashing halt in the next year with barely any new orders for the next 20 years.

Note that in the past 2 years, they decided to ramp up naval construction significantly.

That would be a huge mistake if they were only aiming for your ORBAT, and they're not that stupid.

Plus come to think of it, the Chinese have announced a huge expansion to the Marine Corps.
And there is no point in such an expansion, if they didn't expect to be able to achieve maritime superiority for such a force.
your "you are saying that the Chinese naval shipbuilding programme, is going to come to a crashing halt in the next year with barely any new orders for the next 20 years." is not what I said or implied considering the huge-font, bold-faced the 'endgame' context as above disclaimer Today at 3:02 PM which I wrongly thought might prevent you from twisting my post -- I've talked numbers at a saturation point, not placing orders, and you know it

anyway, no problem I'm on the verge of a defeat here (LOL)

I expect ship-exploitation and -manning factors to take over churning out of hulls (I'm not insinuating anything, just speculating)

time holds the key
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
the name of this thread is
Future PLAN orbat discussion
so I think it's worth linking here what the Chinese military is going to face according to the most recent piece
Strategy of maritime pressure in the Pacific
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note there're no hard feelings on my part

I see some big issues with the CSBA report.

1. Many of the islands suggested as US bastions/fortresses are absolutely TINY in size and there is barely any civilian presence. Even Okinawa is only 2300km2, which isn't very big.
That makes it relatively easy to find military equipment and limits how much equipment can effectively deployed and hidden.

2. The report completely ignores what happens in Korea.

3. Such a strategy requires Philippines, Japan (presumably South Korea) to host a large US presence firing offensive missiles against Chinese ships and mainland China.
But the Philippines, Japan and South Korea are small countries which are dependent on seaborne trade and are close to China.
So they would also have to accept that Chinese counterattacks could cripple their economies and industry.

That doesn't take into account how China is their largest trading partner anyway, and is at the centre of the Asian trading network.

In the case of the Philippines, I don't see the them ever accepting a large-scale US presence on their territory - barring a Chinese attempt to conquer the Philippines
And that is simply not going to happen.
 

Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
in this Internet naval buildups here people should at least mention manning and maintenance requirements/capabilities

for instance, assuming two crews rotations for each of two-hundred destroyers would mean about one-hundred thousand well-trained sailors, LOL

All the naval universities are now training these personnel.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
The entire point of comparative cost advantage is that different economies will have cost advantages when it comes to producing different classes of goods. Factors such as differences in access to natural resources, economies of scale, relevant supply chains, human capital, etc all affect the relative costs of producing goods between different economies. That is why free trade is economically efficient, as a country cab export goods where it enjoys a comparative advantage and import goods where it does not. China may enjoy a significant advantage in building ships, but not so much for building airplanes.
I didn't sleep through Econ 101, but thanks for the refresher anyway. That's not what I'm getting at - if China has strengths in civilian shipbuilding then those strengths should be mirrored in naval shipbuilding. Similarly, if China has weaknesses in civilian aviation then those weaknesses would also be present in military aviation. My point is that all of those strengths and weaknesses are reflected in the representative basket used to compute the PPP adjustment factor. Since China has a strong domestic military-industrial complex, when we are talking about military spending broadly, we should expect that the best way to compare it to military spending elsewhere is by using PPP.

On the topic of trade, the naive Ricardian theory is fine as far as it goes, but it fails spectacularly in one key area: productivity-enhancing technology. It's not by some decree of Heaven that some countries have the "relevant supply chains" and "human capital" that you pointed out and others don't, that's the outcome of industrial policy. Trade is perfectly fine when it comes to shoes and toys - let others do the scut work that's now beneath China's dignity - but China must maintain a strong industrial policy to break into these advanced sectors, no matter how "efficient" it might be to import that technology from abroad.

I wrote a lot more on this topic here:
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jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
thought you had asked Iron specifically

me? I stick to
#267 Jura, Jul 28, 2017

the endgame in terms of the number of
  1. aircraft carriers
  2. Type 055 cruisers (please don't nitpick about the classification, possible later designation of a class with A or for example X or whatever)
  3. Type 052 destroyers
  4. Type 054 frigates
  1. 6
  2. 24
  3. 24
  4. 36
sum = 90 major (4k+) surface combatants including aircraft carriers
(at that point they wouldn't grow, but would be retiring older copies while replacing them with either newly built, or with ships which are currently unknown)

about four dozen, to answer your question, in the 'endgame' context as above

Except for the number of 052, that is about what I expect. I am expecting twice the number of 052 (052D and later versions, I presume) to be at least 49 (13 x 052D, 36 x 052DL). As for 055 cruisers/destroyers, I think 24 is pretty much the maximum amount. I don't think there will be any more 054 frigates. Sum would be about 100 major combatants.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Except for the number of 052, that is about what I expect. I am expecting twice the number of 052 (052D and later versions, I presume) to be at least 49 (13 x 052D, 36 x 052DL). As for 055 cruisers/destroyers, I think 24 is pretty much the maximum amount. I don't think there will be any more 054 frigates. Sum would be about 100 major combatants.

Again, such a fleet would still mean the PLAN would be accepting a fleet size significantly inferior to the US Navy.

I think the major point of disagreement is how large the Chinese economy will be in the future. So I'll summarise my reasoning below.

The key indicator for me is R&D spending.

20 years ago, China was a low-income country but still sustained R&D spending of 1% of GDP. That is at the top end for even a middle-income country.

But now China is a middle-income country, and Chinese R&D spending has steadily grown to 2.2%. And we only see wealthy hi-tech countries sustain anything over 2%. And it doesn't matter whether R&D spending is a cause or an effect of economic growth. What matters is that we can make certain empirical correlations.

If China is falling into the middle trap with slow or stagnant growth, we should see R&D spending crashing down to half of what it is today.

But we actually see R&D spending growth accelerating in China, and the National Science Foundation is already saying China is spending more on R&D than the US this year. Note the vast majority of Chinese spending is conducted by private companies, using a Chinese cost base, seeking profit in the world's largest market for most categories of goods and services.

So this will drive technological upgrading and productivity improvements, and is why I expect relatively fast growth of 5-6%. That would be consistent with the estimates from the Australian Defense and Foreign Affairs departments, which are planning for a world where the Chinese economy grows to twice the size of the US in PPP terms by 2030-2035. That is from 30% larger today.

And in the long run, we can expect China's currency to appreciate to match the PPP exchange rate.

---

But let's say for argument that the Chinese economy does stagnate with only 3-4% growth. That means Chinese GDP in PPP terms only grows from 30% larger today to 50% larger in 2030-2035.

That would still allow China to comfortably field the equivalent of a US navy.

And remember that PPP is a better measure of military spending/capabilities than the exchange rate, given:
1. The vast majority of Chinese military spending is incurred domestically with a Chinese cost base. So imports and the cost of raw materials aren't significant.
2. The difference in costs that we see between the US and Chinese/Russian ships. That applies to both the civilian and military ship costs, where they are known.

On the requirements side, China's major territorial challenges are at sea - in the SCS, ECS and Taiwan.
Plus China is the world's largest trading nation and depends on seaborne imports for raw materials, as well as for exports of manufactured goods.

So the military, government, business and the general population are all in agreement that a large navy is required.
Hence my view that the Chinese Navy will seek a minimum of parity with the US Navy.

Plus can you ever imagine China settling for anything less than being an equal to the US?
 
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jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
Again, such a fleet would still mean the PLAN would be accepting a fleet size significantly inferior to the US Navy.

I think the major point of disagreement is how large the Chinese economy will be in the future. So I'll summarise my reasoning below.

The key indicator for me is R&D spending.

20 years ago, China was a low-income country but still sustained R&D spending of 1% of GDP. That is at the top end for even a middle-income country.

But now China is a middle-income country, and Chinese R&D spending has steadily grown to 2.2%. And we only see wealthy hi-tech countries sustain anything over 2%. And it doesn't matter whether R&D spending is a cause or an effect of economic growth. What matters is that we can make certain empirical correlations.

If China is falling into the middle trap with slow or stagnant growth, we should see R&D spending crashing down to half of what it is today.

But we actually see R&D spending growth accelerating in China, and the National Science Foundation is already saying China is spending more on R&D than the US this year. Note the vast majority of Chinese spending is conducted by private companies, using a Chinese cost base, seeking profit in the world's largest market for most categories of goods and services.

So this will drive technological upgrading and productivity improvements, and is why I expect relatively fast growth of 5-6%. That would be consistent with the estimates from the Australian Defense and Foreign Affairs departments, which are planning for a world where the Chinese economy grows to twice the size of the US in PPP terms by 2030-2035. That is from 30% larger today.

And in the long run, we can expect China's currency to appreciate to match the PPP exchange rate.

---

But let's say for argument that the Chinese economy does stagnate with only 3-4% growth. That means Chinese GDP in PPP terms only grows from 30% larger today to 50% larger in 2030-2035.

That would still allow China to comfortably field the equivalent of a US navy.

And remember that PPP is a better measure of military spending/capabilities than the exchange rate, given:
1. The vast majority of Chinese military spending is incurred domestically with a Chinese cost base. So imports and the cost of raw materials aren't significant.
2. The difference in costs that we see between the US and Chinese/Russian ships. That applies to both the civilian and military ship costs, where they are known.

On the requirements side, China's major territorial challenges are at sea - in the SCS, ECS and Taiwan.
Plus China is the world's largest trading nation and depends on seaborne imports for raw materials, as well as for exports of manufactured goods.

So the military, government, business and the general population are all in agreement that a large navy is required.
Hence my view that the Chinese Navy will seek a minimum of parity with the US Navy.

Plus can you ever imagine China settling for anything less than being an equal to the US?

Actually, I totally see China settling for less than being equal to the US in terms of total navy size. In fact, I see China to deliberately make their navy smaller than the US even if they do have more than enough GDP and resources to sustain a navy larger than the US.

The biggest strategic advantage of China, is that China does NOT need to be a global power in order to be a rich and powerful nation that the US or other power will not want to confront and provoke. China is NOT Germany, nor Japan, nor the USSR. For Germany to be a power on par with China, it will first need to control and command most of western and central Europe, both of which are not already part of Germany. Same for Japan, it will also need to first control and command at least most of the northeast Asian land mass (and population). USSR has a huge landmass, but none of those landmass are what would call the "Goldilocks land".

China already has the majority of northeast/east Asian landmass within its border, that pretty much entails almost all of East Asia's "Goldlocks land". This is why China has no drive to invade any of the other Eastern Asian nations. Because of the law of diminishing return. Adding a Korea or Mongolia, or Japan to the Chinese country, really isn't much of a gain, but the cost would be rather big. In fact, the population in these countries would worth a lot more to China than their land.

This is why I don't think China would want to have a quantity arms race with the US navy. Because there's no point. All China need is parity with US (and her ally) forces in the Indo-pacific region. That's at most 60%-70% of the US navy and marine corps. This would be more than sufficient. Any more would be a waste of effort and resources. I would much rather those resources are put into R&D and high technology. Let the US be burdened with policing the world, let them bear the cost of a navy/marine forces twice as big as China. China is not interested in fighting a total war with the US.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
Again, such a fleet would still mean the PLAN would be accepting a fleet size significantly inferior to the US Navy.

I think the major point of disagreement is how large the Chinese economy will be in the future. So I'll summarise my reasoning below.

The key indicator for me is R&D spending.

20 years ago, China was a low-income country but still sustained R&D spending of 1% of GDP. That is at the top end for even a middle-income country.

But now China is a middle-income country, and Chinese R&D spending has steadily grown to 2.2%. And we only see wealthy hi-tech countries sustain anything over 2%. And it doesn't matter whether R&D spending is a cause or an effect of economic growth. What matters is that we can make certain empirical correlations.

If China is falling into the middle trap with slow or stagnant growth, we should see R&D spending crashing down to half of what it is today.

But we actually see R&D spending growth accelerating in China, and the National Science Foundation is already saying China is spending more on R&D than the US this year. Note the vast majority of Chinese spending is conducted by private companies, using a Chinese cost base, seeking profit in the world's largest market for most categories of goods and services.

So this will drive technological upgrading and productivity improvements, and is why I expect relatively fast growth of 5-6%. That would be consistent with the estimates from the Australian Defense and Foreign Affairs departments, which are planning for a world where the Chinese economy grows to twice the size of the US in PPP terms by 2030-2035. That is from 30% larger today.

And in the long run, we can expect China's currency to appreciate to match the PPP exchange rate.

---

But let's say for argument that the Chinese economy does stagnate with only 3-4% growth. That means Chinese GDP in PPP terms only grows from 30% larger today to 50% larger in 2030-2035.

That would still allow China to comfortably field the equivalent of a US navy.

And remember that PPP is a better measure of military spending/capabilities than the exchange rate, given:
1. The vast majority of Chinese military spending is incurred domestically with a Chinese cost base. So imports and the cost of raw materials aren't significant.
2. The difference in costs that we see between the US and Chinese/Russian ships. That applies to both the civilian and military ship costs, where they are known.

On the requirements side, China's major territorial challenges are at sea - in the SCS, ECS and Taiwan.
Plus China is the world's largest trading nation and depends on seaborne imports for raw materials, as well as for exports of manufactured goods.

So the military, government, business and the general population are all in agreement that a large navy is required.
Hence my view that the Chinese Navy will seek a minimum of parity with the US Navy.

Plus can you ever imagine China settling for anything less than being an equal to the US?

I think a Chinese navy that is about 50% of the US navy in terms of size is more than enough to deter the US in almost any scenarios of harming core Chinese interest. Actually, even 40% is enough.
 
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