Fourth Taiwan Strait Crisis

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Anyway I'm back, decided to set depth to 900m and rig for silent running shortly after Pelosi's plane landed because I thought in that highly emotional state I might say something online that I'll regret later. Having gone through the past 200 pages of this thread I can see some of the members here in this thread might have benefited from the same. That said though I've been keeping tab on Chinese social media and I say our members here generally have a much cooler head than say the folks on weibo, oh boy it's been a roller coaster on there for the last week. In the last few days I see increasingly Chinese people writing "I like to apologies for my behavior in the last few days, I let the nation and the party down with my defeatism" and things like that. So certainly CPC seems to have passed the test internally.

I don't think it's that big of a surprise for long time PLA watchers here that PLA could arrange for exercise of that size and at that speed. It certainly left an impression on the world though. Even on joints like LessCredibleDefence I saw someone doing the usual "China is a paper tiger and the exercises amount to nothing", and someone else random immediately replied "tell that to the armada currently blockading Taiwan".

On PR front while I agree that as it stands it's a big win for China, I also disagree that the whole thing was planned out this way by CPC and Xi. I don't believe all that initial "don't play with fire unless you want to get burnt" type talk coming out of Chinese media and MFA were mistake. They were very deliberate ploy to apply pressure, bluff if you prefer to get Pelosi to not make the trip. I think CPC judged that a similar tactics seems to have worked back in April when she possibly had her tactical positive, so just replay that move and it will work again in August. This was a major mistake and very nearly ended in disaster for China's soft power when the bluff didn't work.

To CPC's credit they had Plan B ready for when she did land and carried it out pretty much flawlessly. That said even in the case of Plan B, things went as well only partly because of what China did, the rest was own goal by Taiwanese and western media. Taiwan's ROCMND engaged in epic coping over the last few days with their:
  • no, no missile overflew the main island, on wait Japanese MOD said they did? Well they don't count because they were above 100km Karman Line and so are technically in space and not in our airspace
  • we will intercept any missiles that overfly our island, on wait actually PAC-3 interceptors cost three times as much as DF-15B and we need at least two interceptors to have chance of successful interception, so now we need to save up the missiles for the actual war and aren't going to do anything this time
  • no, all PLAAF aircraft briefly cross the mid line and turned back. Oh there's a photo of Su-30MKK with Taiwan central mountain in the background? That's photoshop
  • no, no PLAN vessel approached Taiwan close enough to take photos of the landmass, that one of Heping power plant is photoshop. Oh there's actually a video of it too, well that's fake news
With all that coping it's then very difficult to spin the exercise as nothingburger from a paper tiger.

Similarly with the western media, they could have just used their normal tactics and ignored the exercise and pretend nothing is happening - something that they've successfully employed for other things like the current construction of Tiangong space station. But instead we got talking heads going all "Shit we got rused! Xi masterminded the whole thing and lured Pelosi into a trap so that he could use it as excuse to change the status quo". One of the big attack used against little pinks and wumaos like me is we're 大棋党 and like to mentally masturbate that CPC is only showing weakness now as part of some elaborate plan to win the future. The media narrative in the west shut that right down and in fact made it seem like Xi indeed was playing 5D chess when in reality I don't think it was that complicated.

Nice that the own goals were, I think the lesson here for CPC is they should not have been in this position to start with. Had they not luck out it could have been a disaster. Going forward I hope they don't attempt bluffs like that again.

As I've said before, given the speed of the Chinese responses, these were all pre-planned beforehand.

They've had weeks to wargame out all the scenarios and contingency plans. After all, we're talking about a crisis which may cause an accident and an actual war.

But this shouldn't be a surprise. We've seen this happen before with pre-planned actions and instant responses in previous crises.

It's a big contrast to the initial flailing Chinese response over the Ukraine invasion, which China wasn't expecting.

---

There's a default assumption/prejudice in the West that the Chinese Communist Party is incompetent and rules by fear.

But how can such a government preside over an economic miracle with the world's highest growth rates over the past 40 years?
And furthermore, they've steered the Chinese economy to a commanding position for the ongoing Third Industrial Revolution which still has another 30 years to run.

All this is not due to "luck"
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I see no contradiction here. From official PLA statement,they are conducting drills "acrossing the middle line",didn't specify how deep. They are also firing missiles towards "surrounding water",all of which are part of the exercise.

MND ROC Twitter did show PLA units on the east side of the middle line,albeit not deep,they don't show missile activities. So that means PLA could be firing missiles to those red areas,at the same time flying planes and ships in those areas indicated by MND ROC Twitter.

We have literal videos of PLAAF fighters and bombers within visual range of Taipei and somehow the MND ROC paths must be 100% accurate.

Oh wait, aren’t they the same guys who claimed that missiles didn’t fly over Taipei and that Type 052D didn’t come within territorial waters and that the photos and videos were fake?
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
@a0011 welcome to the forum bro, well what is a Chinese anyway? From my experience being bombarded with a stereotypical narrative, I become to hate myself BUT Family is what save me. In the cycle of life, in the end we returned to our roots and I believed as China have grown to prominence, our Taiwanese brethren will embrace it. I had mentioned on my previous post that my Children will be living in a world that being Chinese is attractive, as shown by @Loveleenkr picture that had gain overwhelming adoration among SDF members...lol

If we're talking about the year 2050, then yes.
It's conceivable and (even likely) that China will be a high-income and hi-tech society that bestrides the world.

That will exert a magnetic appeal to anyone with Chinese connections.

---
Also, most people in the world aren't able to distinguish between China/Chinese and the rest of East Asia or SE Asia
And anyone who has travelled to the West can tell stories of casual racism due to skin colour.

So China's rise will raise the stature accorded to all of East Asian and SE Asia by association. That includes Taiwan, Japan and Korea who are currently the most hostile nations to China.

It also means a decline in white privilege and stature, which will be most apparent in Singapore and Hong Kong, due to their history as the westernised/colonised parts of Asia.

Anyway, back on topic.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
"Mainland China risks losing 25% to 35% of GDP" is a typical exaggeration of Taiwanese propaganda. Even if true, that is now. In ten years or twenty years, the GDP at risk will be a far lower percentage of the mainland's economy at that time.

It actually comes from Patchwork's comments that both China AND the US would suffer a 25%-35% decline in GDP.
I assume it is based on a RAND study, as RAND previously declassified an old study which used 2012-2013 data.

(That is comparable to Great Depression levels of economic decline)

And based on this, I would expect the Japanese and Taiwanese figures to be in excess of 40% of GDP

But yes, in 10 years time, I expect the GDP declines would favour China and become worse for the USA.
My gut tells me that we'd looking at something like:

US: 30-40% decline in GDP
CN: 10-20% decline in GDP
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
What-If DC War Game Maps Huge Toll of a Future US-China War Over Taiwan
A think-tank exercise with former Pentagon officials foresees grim results.


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archive.ph/Mt5ln#selection-3525.82-3525.186

As China waged extensive military exercises off of Taiwan last week, a group of American defense experts in Washington was focused on their own simulation of an eventual — but for now entirely hypothetical — US-China war over the island.

The unofficial what-if game is being conducted on the fifth floor of an office building not far from the White House, and it posits a US military response to a Chinese invasion in 2026. Even though the participants bring an American perspective, they are finding that a US-Taiwan victory, if there is one, could come at a huge cost.

“The results are showing that under most — though not all — scenarios, Taiwan can repel an invasion,” said Mark Cancian, a senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, where the war games are being held. “However, the cost will be very high to the Taiwanese infrastructure and economy and to US forces in the Pacific.”

In sessions that will run through September, retired US generals and Navy officers and former Pentagon officials hunch like chess players over tabletops along with analysts from the CSIS think tank. They move forces depicted as blue and red boxes and small wooden squares over maps of the Western Pacific and Taiwan. The results will be released to the public in December.

The not-necessarily-so assumption used in most of the scenarios: China invades Taiwan to force unification with the self-governed island, and the US decides to intervene heavily with its military. Also assumed but far from certain: Japan grants expanded rights to use US bases located on its territory, while stopping short of intervening directly unless Japanese land is attacked. Nuclear weapons aren’t used in the scenarios, and the weapons available are based on capabilities the nations have demonstrated or have concrete plans to deploy by 2026.

China’s test-firing of missiles in recent days in response to US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s visit to Taiwan underscored a Chinese capability that’s already assumed in the gameplay.

In 18 of the 22 rounds of the game played to this point, Chinese missiles sink a large part of the US and Japanese surface fleet and destroy “hundreds of aircraft on the ground,” according to Cancian, a former White House defense budget analyst and retired US Marine. “However, allied air and naval counterattacks hammer the exposed Chinese amphibious and surface fleet, eventually sinking about 150 ships.”

“The reason for the high US losses is that the United States cannot conduct a systematic campaign to take down Chinese defenses before moving in close,” he said. “The United States must send forces to attack the Chinese fleet, especially the amphibious ships, before establishing air or maritime superiority,” he said. “To get a sense of the scale of the losses, in our last game iteration, the United States lost over 900 fighter/attack aircraft in a four-week conflict. That’s about half the Navy and Air Force inventory.”

The Chinese missile force “is devastating while the inventory lasts” so US submarines and bombers with long-range missiles “are particularly important,” he said. “For the Taiwanese, anti-ship missiles are important, surface ships and aircraft less so.” Surface ships “have a hard time surviving as long as the Chinese have long-range missiles available,” Cancian said.

The game players haven’t made any estimates so far on the number of lives that would be lost or the sweeping economic impact of such a conflict between the US and China, the world’s two largest economies.

Taiwan’s defense capabilities are an especially important part of the calculations, because its forces would be responsible for blunting and containing Chinese landings from the south — a scenario played out in the simulation.

“The success or failure of the ground war depends entirely on the Taiwanese forces,” Cancian said. “In all game iterations so far, the Chinese could establish a beachhead but in most circumstances cannot expand it. The attrition of their amphibious fleet limits the forces they can deploy and sustain. In a few instances, the Chinese were able to hold part of the island but not conquer the entire island.”

Anti-ship missiles — US-made Harpoons and Taiwanese-made weapons that the island democracy fields — would play a large role in the early destruction of the Chinese amphibious landing force, while Taiwan’s Navy and half of its air force would be destroyed in the first days of the conflict, according to the modeling so far.

“Taiwan is a large island, and its army is not small,” said Eric Heginbotham, a principal research scientist at the MIT Center for International Studies in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who’s participating in the war game. “But from a qualitative standpoint, Taiwan’s army is not at all what it should be, and we have built that into the game. The transition to an all-volunteer military has been botched, and although conscripts remain an important component, the conscripts serve only four months.”

Perhaps the most disconcerting takeaway for Washington: The high-cost sequences conducted so far aren’t even the most challenging hypotheticals.

We have not run the most pessimistic scenarios, where China might conquer the entire island,” Cancian said.
He said the four remaining rounds of the war games will “investigate some alternative scenarios — like the US delaying its support for Taiwan, strict Japanese neutrality and a pessimistic scenario that gives China a variety of advantages.”

David Ochmanek, a Rand Corp. senior defense researcher and former US deputy assistant defense secretary, said a CSIS exercise he participated in was “well-run and credibly adjudicated.” Ochmanek, who has participated in dozens of China-US war games, both unclassified and classified, said, “It basically replicated the results of other games that I’ve played that were set in the same time epoch and used the same basic scenario.”

The keys to “any good game are to get knowledgeable players who can faithfully and creatively simulate what their nation’s forces would do and to get adjudicators — umpires, essentially — who can credibly assess the outcomes of engagements and battles,” Ochmanek said.

War games are played frequently by governments and outside organizations worldwide. But instructions to the participants in the CSIS project say that although the Pentagon “has conducted many such war games, they are all classified. As a result, information in the public domain is extremely limited. This project will fill that gap in public knowledge and thereby encourage discussion about US force structure and policies.”
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
What-If DC War Game Maps Huge Toll of a Future US-China War Over Taiwan
A think-tank exercise with former Pentagon officials foresees grim results.


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

archive.ph/Mt5ln#selection-3525.82-3525.186

As China waged extensive military exercises off of Taiwan last week, a group of American defense experts in Washington was focused on their own simulation of an eventual — but for now entirely hypothetical — US-China war over the island.

The unofficial what-if game is being conducted on the fifth floor of an office building not far from the White House, and it posits a US military response to a Chinese invasion in 2026. Even though the participants bring an American perspective, they are finding that a US-Taiwan victory, if there is one, could come at a huge cost.

“The results are showing that under most — though not all — scenarios, Taiwan can repel an invasion,” said Mark Cancian, a senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, where the war games are being held. “However, the cost will be very high to the Taiwanese infrastructure and economy and to US forces in the Pacific.”

In sessions that will run through September, retired US generals and Navy officers and former Pentagon officials hunch like chess players over tabletops along with analysts from the CSIS think tank. They move forces depicted as blue and red boxes and small wooden squares over maps of the Western Pacific and Taiwan. The results will be released to the public in December.

The not-necessarily-so assumption used in most of the scenarios: China invades Taiwan to force unification with the self-governed island, and the US decides to intervene heavily with its military. Also assumed but far from certain: Japan grants expanded rights to use US bases located on its territory, while stopping short of intervening directly unless Japanese land is attacked. Nuclear weapons aren’t used in the scenarios, and the weapons available are based on capabilities the nations have demonstrated or have concrete plans to deploy by 2026.

China’s test-firing of missiles in recent days in response to US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s visit to Taiwan underscored a Chinese capability that’s already assumed in the gameplay.

In 18 of the 22 rounds of the game played to this point, Chinese missiles sink a large part of the US and Japanese surface fleet and destroy “hundreds of aircraft on the ground,” according to Cancian, a former White House defense budget analyst and retired US Marine. “However, allied air and naval counterattacks hammer the exposed Chinese amphibious and surface fleet, eventually sinking about 150 ships.”

“The reason for the high US losses is that the United States cannot conduct a systematic campaign to take down Chinese defenses before moving in close,” he said. “The United States must send forces to attack the Chinese fleet, especially the amphibious ships, before establishing air or maritime superiority,” he said. “To get a sense of the scale of the losses, in our last game iteration, the United States lost over 900 fighter/attack aircraft in a four-week conflict. That’s about half the Navy and Air Force inventory.”

The Chinese missile force “is devastating while the inventory lasts” so US submarines and bombers with long-range missiles “are particularly important,” he said. “For the Taiwanese, anti-ship missiles are important, surface ships and aircraft less so.” Surface ships “have a hard time surviving as long as the Chinese have long-range missiles available,” Cancian said.

The game players haven’t made any estimates so far on the number of lives that would be lost or the sweeping economic impact of such a conflict between the US and China, the world’s two largest economies.

Taiwan’s defense capabilities are an especially important part of the calculations, because its forces would be responsible for blunting and containing Chinese landings from the south — a scenario played out in the simulation.

“The success or failure of the ground war depends entirely on the Taiwanese forces,” Cancian said. “In all game iterations so far, the Chinese could establish a beachhead but in most circumstances cannot expand it. The attrition of their amphibious fleet limits the forces they can deploy and sustain. In a few instances, the Chinese were able to hold part of the island but not conquer the entire island.”

Anti-ship missiles — US-made Harpoons and Taiwanese-made weapons that the island democracy fields — would play a large role in the early destruction of the Chinese amphibious landing force, while Taiwan’s Navy and half of its air force would be destroyed in the first days of the conflict, according to the modeling so far.

“Taiwan is a large island, and its army is not small,” said Eric Heginbotham, a principal research scientist at the MIT Center for International Studies in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who’s participating in the war game. “But from a qualitative standpoint, Taiwan’s army is not at all what it should be, and we have built that into the game. The transition to an all-volunteer military has been botched, and although conscripts remain an important component, the conscripts serve only four months.”

Perhaps the most disconcerting takeaway for Washington: The high-cost sequences conducted so far aren’t even the most challenging hypotheticals.

We have not run the most pessimistic scenarios, where China might conquer the entire island,” Cancian said.
He said the four remaining rounds of the war games will “investigate some alternative scenarios — like the US delaying its support for Taiwan, strict Japanese neutrality and a pessimistic scenario that gives China a variety of advantages.”

David Ochmanek, a Rand Corp. senior defense researcher and former US deputy assistant defense secretary, said a CSIS exercise he participated in was “well-run and credibly adjudicated.” Ochmanek, who has participated in dozens of China-US war games, both unclassified and classified, said, “It basically replicated the results of other games that I’ve played that were set in the same time epoch and used the same basic scenario.”

The keys to “any good game are to get knowledgeable players who can faithfully and creatively simulate what their nation’s forces would do and to get adjudicators — umpires, essentially — who can credibly assess the outcomes of engagements and battles,” Ochmanek said.

War games are played frequently by governments and outside organizations worldwide. But instructions to the participants in the CSIS project say that although the Pentagon “has conducted many such war games, they are all classified. As a result, information in the public domain is extremely limited. This project will fill that gap in public knowledge and thereby encourage discussion about US force structure and policies.”
I can already visualize the effortpost from @Patchwork_Chimera dismantling/dissecting this exercise from CSIS.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
I see no contradiction here. From official PLA statement,they are conducting drills "acrossing the middle line",didn't specify how deep. They are also firing missiles towards "surrounding water",all of which are part of the exercise.

MND ROC Twitter did show PLA units on the east side of the middle line,albeit not deep,they don't show missile activities. So that means PLA could be firing missiles to those red areas,at the same time flying planes and ships in those areas indicated by MND ROC Twitter.
ROC doesn't have the ability to find all or even most the planes or ships sent on exercise.

So the ones on the map are the ones they've been able to find, and given they're pretty uniform around the median line, it's probably units that specifically signal their presence, in order to test rebel army reactions.

Other ones like the Su30mk2 photographed almost above the island may have slipped through whatever rudimentary air search radar used by ROC. And obviously the J-20s cannot be found due to complete lack of counter stealth abilities.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
ROC doesn't have the ability to find all or even most the planes or ships sent on exercise.

So the ones on the map are the ones they've been able to find, and given they're pretty uniform around the median line, it's probably units that specifically signal their presence, in order to test rebel army reactions.

Other ones like the Su30mk2 photographed almost above the island may have slipped through whatever rudimentary air search radar used by ROC. And obviously the J-20s cannot be found due to complete lack of counter stealth abilities.
You forgot about the "massive, mega-powerful" AESA radar in Hsinchu:
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Given that it operates in UHF, it has inherent "counter-stealth" abilities and together with its massive radiative output it is plausible to believe that it can reveal the J-20 at considerable distances, possibly all the way across the strait and beyond. This radar can detect an object the size of a small car at a range of 5,500km.
 
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