FFG 054/054A Thread

[RedMercury]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

Just a reality check, be sure you're not comparing lightweight ASW torpedos with heavyweight torpedos in terms of performance numbers. They are very different in size and mass.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

Nice post chicet9, welcome to the club...



Sorry sidius, but thats pretty weird to say. China cannot build its navy to compete only Taiwan any longer in 21st century. And the PLA main heads sees this and luckyly the emphasis of the navy has moved towards blue water navy, and in that contest Chinese forces migth encounter threads of more uncertain nature. Remember that Japan has over 20 subs, all of them superior to the bulk of chinese subs, never the mention of US nuclear fleet that cannot be encountered whit WWII era coastal forces.
The current trend in the international naval legue is sub-surface, as the potential of modern air arm (in hands of US) has become more and more superior in against surface units. In cost effective perspective, its hardly if not at all wise to go on for expensive AAW units and own aircraft carrier capapility, as the subs offers lot more potential in lot cheaper prices.

Thougth this dictates mostly strategies of US aversors, it nevertheless doesent outclude US importance of Submarine arm, nor does it outclass any other potential adversos that china migth face. PLAN has finaly managed to lift of from its single purpose nature that has been more harm than good for china, But it cannot cope against modern forces whitout state of the art ASW systems. Currently almoust all ASW devolpment has been placed in ice after the retirement of vast Soviet submarine fleet and cold war in general, but china cannot let changed political circumstances out of its perspective to dictate its own defence requirments. the most important step in the road that PLAN has now taken is to produce a respectfull fleet of basic oceanic escorts and hunter-killer groups of submarines and surface units, packed up whit airborne units to encounter any possiple submarine thread.
Only afterwards, its reasonable to go on for mass production of AAW units to defend carrier task groups as well the ASW forces

Your mentioned big ocean going destroyers arent in any use...but to be big and go oceanic...956Es were designed in totally different purposes that chinese fleet could ever field them, Luhus and Luhais are little above presidental-yatch status against modern japanese, south korean and US surface units and submarines. Whiout modern ocean going ASW escorts, this fleetupgrade whit possiple carrier, is no use, and will go bottom before anyone gets change say anything...

what are you talking about !!!!!!!!!!!

the PLAN needs to become ocean going first, to complete this goal it needs mordern destroyer sized ship and a good airdefence given time the PLAN will eventualy become a balanced naval force like teh USN. Only then will ASW be required. The jap navy at its core still relies on sea sparrow for airdefence and harpoon for SSM not a great advantage when cpompare with the PLAN. As for the Korean they arent qualtively superior to PLAN and are currently outnumbered. The Yuan and kilos china have is still better then their 209 copy and japan's homemade SSK. they also have littile/ no defense aginst the 093 SSN entering teh PLAN right now. In terms of the numbers and quality of SSM china has an edge over both nations. in airdefence the gap is rapdily closing this combined with china's superior airpower ( compared with these nations offcourse ) is enough to hold off the japs and korean.

But right now its primary enemies are taiwan and Japan maybe a carrier task force or two from America. aginst this enemy the surface unit of PLAN isent going to be effective any time soon. insted china will rely on massive numbers of missile launched from sub and aircraft. this is the 21the centry the age of missiles!!!!!!!!!!! large surface units are nothing but steel eater waste full of shipyard space. A massive fleet can be construced quickly and cheaply without significantly tech improvement. deployed in numbers these subs are good for detering the americans and cuting of merchant shiping from japan.

 

[Gollevainen]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

I cannot agree with you Dart and i found your statements still quite weird....

the PLAN needs to become ocean going first, to complete this goal it needs mordern destroyer sized ship and a good airdefence given time the PLAN will eventualy become a balanced naval force like teh USN. Only then will ASW be required.

Truly capaple blue water navy is sum of many factors and lacking in one means your entire fleet has very strong weak point. You cannot put a importance-numbers to these factors, you need them all. A good airdefence wont defend you against submarines...

The jap navy at its core still relies on sea sparrow for airdefence and harpoon for SSM not a great advantage when cpompare with the PLAN.

Harpoon is extremely capaple SSM and is more than sufficient enough to deal the enemyes that Japan might come agross. If we are trying to compare Japans performance towards chinses navy, remember that apart from the 052b/C classes, china lacks completely adequate missiledefence systems and airdefence in general. SSMs wont clahs against each others...

As for the rest part of your post, I can only say that you are looking facts behind way too red eyeclasses. How can you state that Korean and japanese navy are quantivily bellow china? Or that China have airsuperioty over these two countryes? I think you should pay bit more time on studying both Korean and Japanese current fleets and armed forces in general.

Don't take this as anyway offencive, but it seems that you live almoust in denyal over some certain important factors of Chinese overall capapilityes. You seem to see only things that you wishes and ignoring tthe well know fact, that untill very recently, chinese navy (particularry) was completely obsolent compared to any other modern fleets. It lacked many elements that are taken granted when descriping modern, capaple fleet. So how can you expect that after 5 years (altough fast) build up can china be par or superior to let's say Japan which have enjoyed beeing in the top league for nearly 50 years?

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

I cannot agree with you Dart and i found your statements still quite weird....
Truly capaple blue water navy is sum of many factors and lacking in one means your entire fleet has very strong weak point. You cannot put a importance-numbers to these factors, you need them all. A good airdefence wont defend you against submarines...
Harpoon is extremely capaple SSM and is more than sufficient enough to deal the enemyes that Japan might come agross. If we are trying to compare Japans performance towards chinses navy, remember that apart from the 052b/C classes, china lacks completely adequate missiledefence systems and airdefence in general. SSMs wont clahs against each others...
As for the rest part of your post, I can only say that you are looking facts behind way too red eyeclasses. How can you state that Korean and japanese navy are quantivily bellow china? Or that China have airsuperioty over these two countryes? I think you should pay bit more time on studying both Korean and Japanese current fleets and armed forces in general.

Don't take this as anyway offencive, but it seems that you live almoust in denyal over some certain important factors of Chinese overall capapilityes. You seem to see only things that you wishes and ignoring tthe well know fact, that untill very recently, chinese navy (particularry) was completely obsolent compared to any other modern fleets. It lacked many elements that are taken granted when descriping modern, capaple fleet. So how can you expect that after 5 years (altough fast) build up can china be par or superior to let's say Japan which have enjoyed beeing in the top league for nearly 50 years?

as a sign of respect you might want to spell my name out correctly !:nono:

maybe you should look more at the current jap airforce and the perfomance of their F-15!!! or the Korean F-16 they are not superior in quality to the Su-27/30 or J-10 in anyway.

the 052b/c do not lack quality compared with alll the jap destroyers except for the kongos. china does not need to mass produce them if you notice they only buit two at a time to test tachnology and beef up the fleet in terms of numbers. All of the weapons and engines on the japanese and korean ships are imported from America where as the chinese shps generaly have indengenious weapon systems. The difference bewten teh chinaese and japanese navy is only going the get smaller

the harpoon also compares poorly with new chinese SSM's

as for the japanese sub fleet please prove they are superior in quality to the Yuan/song /kilo china has

Korea's copy of early 209 is also not any better then the kilo

P.S insted of resorting to personal insult by accusing othes of looking through a red eye glass looking up some info on the jap airforce might be helpful

 

[Gollevainen]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

as a sign of respect you might want to spell my name out correctly !

like you always so nicely spell Gollevainen?

Now i said, don't take it as offence. I never made any personal insults, so don't try to start a fuzz over nothing. I'mjust pointing out that your "facts" are bit strange and wondering where they are based on?

maybe you should look more at the current jap airforce and the perfomance of their F-15!!! or the Korean F-16 they are not superior in quality to the Su-27/30 or J-10 in anyway.

F-15 and F-16/F-2 are superior to everything but Flankers and perhaps J-10 (we really don't know enough of it that we could say anything certain to any direction) but they definetly are not inferior to those. What exactly are you implying in here? That F-15 might be inferior to J-8 or J-7? Or that F-15 is somewhat bad and unable to perform it's task? And what exact facts is this F-15 minimilazing based on?

All of the weapons and engines on the japanese and korean ships are imported from America where as the chinese shps generaly have indengenious weapon systems

The level of indegenios equipment isen't anyway a factor of your fleets performance. Indegenious systems may be inferior to systems bought from aboard, so stating that some nay is worser than other simply just becouse it has foreing systems is absurd.

the harpoon also compares poorly with new chinese SSM's

Did'nt I just said that the SSMs wont clash against each others, but agtainst their opponents missile defence systems.

as for the japanese sub fleet please prove they are superior in quality to the Yuan/song /kilo china has

You are the one stating that Kilo/song and Yuan are superior to Japanese subs, so the burden of proof lyes on you...same goes with the Korean subs.

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

I'm going to side with gollevainen on this one. Large surface fleets are good, but ASW warefare is an essential part of it. In WW1 and 2, German submarines put numerous British battleships and cruisers out of action. U.S submarines put numerous japanese carriers and battleships out of action.

Likewise, i cannot see how even the most advanced PLAN combatants can survive in submarien-dense environment. diesles can only protect the navy for so far befor needing to return to port. Since china wishes to become a blue water navy, the luxery of diesels will quickly diminish.

upgrading ASW is not that hard either. China already has developed some relatively sophisticated sonar. its jsut the abscence of a capable torpedo that disturbs me.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

I'm going to side with gollevainen on this one. Large surface fleets are good, but ASW warefare is an essential part of it. In WW1 and 2, German submarines put numerous British battleships and cruisers out of action. U.S submarines put numerous japanese carriers and battleships out of action.

Likewise, i cannot see how even the most advanced PLAN combatants can survive in submarien-dense environment. diesles can only protect the navy for so far befor needing to return to port. Since china wishes to become a blue water navy, the luxery of diesels will quickly diminish.

upgrading ASW is not that hard either. China already has developed some relatively sophisticated sonar. its jsut the abscence of a capable torpedo that disturbs me.

WRONG !!!!!!!!

the u-boats were most effective aginst merchant shiping aginst battleship[s and carriers they hardly made a dint at all.

as for American submrines their only contribuation to teh war was ending merchant shiping and starving out japan

Offcourse teh PLAN will need improved ASW but not right now none of china's enemies have a powerful sub fleet

P.S we are noe totaly off topic if you wan to talk about PLAN's ASW make a new thread

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

If I remeber correctly, both the kongo and the Heiei were sunk by torpedoes. So was the Shinano, a carrier. In WW1, the british cruiser hawke was sunk by a submarines.

Ever heard of preparing for the future? Are you going to wait until your enemy has a powerful submarine force before you start upgrading?

 

[tphuang]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

actually, i have to make a note regarding the F-15Js, they are really not the best F-15s around, probably one of the earlier variants, they can't even fire AMRAAM and they are attempting to integrate an ARH missile like AAM-4, but only very few F-15s have been converted to using AAM-4. The rest are still using AIM-7. Same with F-2. (my opinion toward F-2 has already been posted in many places, lol) Also, I don't think any of the Japanese planes have Helmet Mounted display. imo, Japanese air force faces quantative and qualitative disadvantage vs 4th generation planes of pla.

Korean is a different issue. F-15K is one of the most advanced F-15s around. And I would say the south korean F-16s are probably more advanced than the Japanese F-2 also.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Type 054 FFG status

F-15 and F-16/F-2 are superior to everything but Flankers and perhaps J-10 (we really don't know enough of it that we could say anything certain to any direction) but they definetly are not inferior to those. What exactly are you implying in here? That F-15 might be inferior to J-8 or J-7? Or that F-15 is somewhat bad and unable to perform it's task? And what exact facts is this F-15 minimilazing based on?.

the japanese F-15 is a export version of late production As with only sparrow capability and improved engine. they can not perform ground attack mission or anti-shiping strikes ( unless its use free fall iron bombs) it also has NO AIM-120 capability is alone puts it at disadvantage cpmpared with PLAF flankers. The radar is also not very good only at teh level of F-15A just comparble to unupgraded Su-27Sk. the F-2 suffers from cost over run and structeral problem they have instances of wings breaking off !!! again it lack surface strike ability. Both the japanese and Kprean airforce lack quanity compared with the PLAF.

The level of indegenios equipment isen't anyway a factor of your fleets performance. Indegenious systems may be inferior to systems bought from aboard, so stating that some nay is worser than other simply just becouse it has foreing systems is absurd. .

having indegenious equipment means you can control the capability of your ships. imported equipment means the ability of you ships are limited by what others are willing to selll you !!!! china can simply enlarge the 052C to produce a new destroyer where as japan will neded U.S assiatance to built a new knogo. the AGEIS system will have to be imported along with all the weapons that go with the ship

Did'nt I just said that the SSMs wont clash against each others, but agtainst their opponents missile defence systems. .

short ranged SSM can put your fleet at a big disadvantage with the new YJ-62 missile's 300KM range the chinese can simply attack a japanese fleet with out fear of anything fored bac at them

You are the one stating that Kilo/song and Yuan are superior to Japanese subs, so the burden of proof lyes on you...same goes with the Korean subs.

I said they were comparable not suoperior we know the yuan has AIP somthing the japanese not have ( not until their copy of teh gotland engine is finished ) we know the kilo is more quiet then the 209( comfirmed by excerise in indian navy ) it als has the CLUB superior in pay load and range to the harpon the korean have yet to field. all the sung and many ming have the the sub launched C-803 again better at anti-surface work then the japanese sub fleet.