FFG 054/054A Thread

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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 054 FFG status

I do not put it beyond the abilities of the chinese to purchases a few russian navy surplus ss-n-14s, and reverse engineer them, as they had done with the mk 46. I do understand Taiwan has a very pathetic sub force, but japans is far from negligible. Even the indians have superior tropedoes to the yu-7, even though the pakistani sub fleet is almost as small as taiwans.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 054 FFG status

MIGleader said:
I do not put it beyond the abilities of the chinese to purchases a few russian navy surplus ss-n-14s, and reverse engineer them, as they had done with the mk 46. I do understand Taiwan has a very pathetic sub force, but japans is far from negligible. Even the indians have superior tropedoes to the yu-7, even though the pakistani sub fleet is almost as small as taiwans.

the mk-46 still has room for improvement but the ss-n-14 is too old the torperdo that goes with it is also out of production its anti-shiping ability is minimal

china already purchase the club with its anti-sub missile why would they wat the the old ss-n-14
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 054 FFG status

Because no matter how fast missles like the club are, they are prone to interception, unlike torpedoes.

Besides, I'm talking about torpedo's chiense surface combatants can arm themselves with, not submarines. Apparently, none of China's existing torpedoes can match the 55km range of the ss-n-14 yet, the "old" torpedo. Now if only china can get its hands on some stallions...

If china begins lauching yu-5s from its surface combatants, ill be happy.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 054 FFG status

MIGleader said:
Because no matter how fast missles like the club are, they are prone to interception, unlike torpedoes.

Besides, I'm talking about torpedo's chiense surface combatants can arm themselves with, not submarines. Apparently, none of China's existing torpedoes can match the 55km range of the ss-n-14 yet, the "old" torpedo. Now if only china can get its hands on some stallions...

If china begins lauching yu-5s from its surface combatants, ill be happy.

the stallion is a missile not a torperdo its old and out of production find spares for it will be a nightmare

also club is a series of missiles that includ ssm, asw, land attack cruise missile etc it can be launched from bnoth surface ship and sub !!!

the primary reason however is the PLAN's lack of intrest in asw weapon RUB rocets 533mm torperdo are readly avilible from russia but china dont need them

the jap sub fleet can be countered by the chinese subs taiwan has a pathetic sub fleet south korea has some license built 209 but thats it so PLAN generaly donthave too worry about subs

china's biggest disadvantageis in the numbers of large sea going destroyers adn air defence not asw
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 054 FFG status

Out of production? Do you know that the kursk sank in 2000 while carrying stallions? Its still the top secret weapon of the russian navy.

As for klubs, China only purchased the Anti-ship cruise missle varient, the 3m-54E1. if you can prove the PLan aquired any torpedo versions, ill put it to rest.

I understand east asia is not submarine country, but soon china will be taking her naval aspiration out of the region and into the blue water. The indians have 16 subamrines now, 10 of which are kilos armed with Clubs. Plus we have the six scorpenes. Also, the indians are building their own nuclear submarine. China must take the indian ocean to link up with pakiastan and the oil-mid east, so the region will be hotly constested. Effective ASW is the only way to null out the indian submarine force, as china's diesels cannot go that far.

do i even need to mention america?
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 054 FFG status

MIGleader said:
Out of production? Do you know that the kursk sank in 2000 while carrying stallions? Its still the top secret weapon of the russian navy.
As for klubs, China only purchased the Anti-ship cruise missle varient, the 3m-54E1. if you can prove the PLan aquired any torpedo versions, ill put it to rest.
I understand east asia is not submarine country, but soon china will be taking her naval aspiration out of the region and into the blue water. The indians have 16 subamrines now, 10 of which are kilos armed with Clubs. Plus we have the six scorpenes. Also, the indians are building their own nuclear submarine. China must take the indian ocean to link up with pakiastan and the oil-mid east, so the region will be hotly constested. Effective ASW is the only way to null out the indian submarine force, as china's diesels cannot go that far.
do i even need to mention america?

india first nuclear sub will probely be as efficent as the 091 they start from zero

the PLAN inot going to expand into indian ocean very soon currently the level of sub threat faced by teh PLAN is not deadly. china's own sub fleet and whatever ASW assets they have right now can handle the threat. the prospesct of american seending SSN into shallow water hwere they will be vunerable to numericlay superior subs and primitive ASW technology the PLAN has right now is minimal.

as of now china already has 2 ASW missile cy-1/2 frankly we dont know anything about them. they may decided the improve these with Russian help insted of buying imports.

P.S a 636 kilo arment includs ASW Club/ land attack cruise missile
 

swimmerXC

Unregistered
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Type 054 FFG status

Get back to topic.. what does J-10 have to do with Type 054 FFG
:eek:ff
 

chicket9

New Member
Re: Type 054 FFG status

Needless to say, I fear that even PLAN itself underestimates submarines.

The PLAN has the largest submarine fleet in East Asia, and the third in the world. It has 10 Songs, 12 Kilos, 2 Yuans, 2 Type 093s, 1 Type 094, and a handful of modernized Mings, which ALL are substantial vessels, and this does not include the Hans, older Mings, and Romeos.
To summarize, PLAN has a bloody powerful submarine fleet, even if half her boats are considered obsolete. 20+ of them can fire cruise missiles (Song with its YJ8X and Kilo with its Club). China also has a lot of modern torpedoes like YU-5 and imported Russian models.

Yet, perhaps China has placed too much confidence in her submarine fleet to deter other submarines. In time of war, eventually not always will submarines meet submarines, not all PLAN subs can be tied down for escorting surface flotillas, and PLAN will need all the subs it can get for offensive missions, not for escorting PLAN surface ships. This leaves the void of how PLAN surface ships may defend themselves from enemy subs.

Of course, all new combatants have torpedoes and VDS, as well as the helicopter. But most of the Jiangweis, Ludas and Jianghus do not carry torpedoes, which leaves them almost defenceless at close range.

China does not have the numbers of helicopters to ensuure that each vessel with a hangar can carry one, and PLAN aircraft capable of ASW patrols are rather limited, with only a few Y8X and a handful of aging Z8s/SH-5s. With so few aircraft, I doubt PLAN could even maintain 24hour coverage to defend its numerous bases let alone combat groups.

The YU-6 is simply aged to 1970s technology, and is highly inferior to the latest MK46 designs carried by US and Western platforms. Yes, SS-N-14 and Stallion are old, and so are ASROC. But PLAN needs something for its surface vessels to hit submarines at a good range.

While weapons are half the problem, sensors would be the other half. Not enough ships have VDS or modern sonars, and I'm skeptical on how well PLAN pilots are in performing ASW patrols or dipping sonars.


If USN can field up to a dozen SSNs against PLAN, (which in theory it can deploy in very short time from Pearl Harbour, Japan, Guam, and othe bases). These SSNs all can fire subharpoons, tomahawks, and the deadly long range MK48 torpedo. These SSNs are multirole platforms, and are difficult to hit and find, because they are quiet, fast, long range, and manned by some of the best submariners in the world. PLAN cannot depend on just her submarines to act as a shield against enemy subs. Eventually, PLAN's surface flotilla must find ways to defend itself from enemy subs without relying on friendly subs to do the job.

With concentrated spending, all Ludas and Jiangweis can carry YU-7 torpedoes, more Z-9s or Helixs can be bought, ensuring there are more than enough helicopters for all surface ships that can carry em, that friend-foe identification be improved to ensure that no friendly ships attack friendly subs or vice versa, and the CY1 ASW rocket programme be reinitiated, so that PLAN may have a ready to use ASW ranged weapon even if its obsolete.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
Re: Type 054 FFG status

swimmerXC said:
Get back to topic.. what does J-10 have to do with Type 054 FFG
:eek:ff

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

where didi we mention the J-10???????????

as for the asw ability of 054 I dont see how its offtopic
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Type 054 FFG status

Nice post chicet9, welcome to the club...

the primary reason however is the PLAN's lack of intrest in asw weapon RUB rocets 533mm torperdo are readly avilible from russia but china dont need them

the jap sub fleet can be countered by the chinese subs taiwan has a pathetic sub fleet south korea has some license built 209 but thats it so PLAN generaly donthave too worry about subs

china's biggest disadvantageis in the numbers of large sea going destroyers adn air defence not asw

Sorry sidius, but thats pretty weird to say. China cannot build its navy to compete only Taiwan any longer in 21st century. And the PLA main heads sees this and luckyly the emphasis of the navy has moved towards blue water navy, and in that contest Chinese forces migth encounter threads of more uncertain nature. Remember that Japan has over 20 subs, all of them superior to the bulk of chinese subs, never the mention of US nuclear fleet that cannot be encountered whit WWII era coastal forces.
The current trend in the international naval legue is sub-surface, as the potential of modern air arm (in hands of US) has become more and more superior in against surface units. In cost effective perspective, its hardly if not at all wise to go on for expensive AAW units and own aircraft carrier capapility, as the subs offers lot more potential in lot cheaper prices.

Thougth this dictates mostly strategies of US aversors, it nevertheless doesent outclude US importance of Submarine arm, nor does it outclass any other potential adversos that china migth face. PLAN has finaly managed to lift of from its single purpose nature that has been more harm than good for china, But it cannot cope against modern forces whitout state of the art ASW systems. Currently almoust all ASW devolpment has been placed in ice after the retirement of vast Soviet submarine fleet and cold war in general, but china cannot let changed political circumstances out of its perspective to dictate its own defence requirments. the most important step in the road that PLAN has now taken is to produce a respectfull fleet of basic oceanic escorts and hunter-killer groups of submarines and surface units, packed up whit airborne units to encounter any possiple submarine thread.
Only afterwards, its reasonable to go on for mass production of AAW units to defend carrier task groups as well the ASW forces

Your mentioned big ocean going destroyers arent in any use...but to be big and go oceanic...956Es were designed in totally different purposes that chinese fleet could ever field them, Luhus and Luhais are little above presidental-yatch status against modern japanese, south korean and US surface units and submarines. Whiout modern ocean going ASW escorts, this fleetupgrade whit possiple carrier, is no use, and will go bottom before anyone gets change say anything...
 
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