FFG 054/054A Thread
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Re: Type 054 FFG status
ff Ok guys..lets leep on the subject of 054 FFG OK? My fault for going off topic
One of my problems is that I have a tendency to compare all ships to the USN. But I do realize that no nation on earth spends money on it's military like the US. That said the 054 looks like a good basic FFG. I think, however, it will be lacking in ASW. But as someone pointed out maybe it will be primarly partroling littorial waters?
ff Ok guys..lets leep on the subject of 054 FFG OK? My fault for going off topicOne of my problems is that I have a tendency to compare all ships to the USN. But I do realize that no nation on earth spends money on it's military like the US. That said the 054 looks like a good basic FFG. I think, however, it will be lacking in ASW. But as someone pointed out maybe it will be primarly partroling littorial waters?
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Looks like the PLAN may build quite a few of these. We shall see.
No prob...and thanks for pulling us back in. I too think the 054 and 054A are good designs. Solid, multi-functional frigates. Modern and well armed. I do believe they will not be that strong in ASW from the vessel itself...but if the PLAN gets a good ASW Helo, their capability in that regard will go way up.
One of my problems is that I have a tendency to compare all ships to the USN. But I do realize that no nation on earth spends money on it's military like the US. That said the 054 looks like a good basic FFG. I think, however, it will be lacking in ASW. But as someone pointed out maybe it will be primarly partroling littorial waters?
Looks like the PLAN may build quite a few of these. We shall see.
eecsmaster
Junior Member
Re: Type 054 FFG status
oops, yeah, all 4. My mistake.
oops, yeah, all 4. My mistake.
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Mods: pls feel free to move this post to wherever it is appropriate - sorry!
Dear Oringo:
Yes, aircraft, ship and powerplant gas turbines are similar in design. But because weight is not as large a factor for a ship as an aircraft, (but fuel economy and reliability are) they tend to resemble powerplant installations the most.
Compared to aircraft, shipboard gas turbine propulsion installations are closest to turbo-prop and turbo-shaft (helicopter) designs. This is because of the extensive gearing needed to reduce the speed of the power turbine to propeller speed.
Next - a simple or open-cycle gas turbine uses only the expanding gases from the gas generator unit to drive the power turbine, and is not coupled to another power generating system.
In a combined-cycle unit, two (or more) fluids, (typically gas and steam) are operated together. What happens is the hot exhaust of the turbine is used to boil water to make steam which then drives a second, steam turbine.
So you have two turbines - the gas and the steam turbine. The first turbine provides heat for the second. The amount of energy you can recover is the increased - resulting in higher efficiency and better fuel economy.
The drawback - cost, because you have to have two systems, gas and steam, this is a very expensive installation.
The efficiencies GE quotes is usually for the power plant installation (burning natural gas) and not for shipboard units. Power plants are optimized for economy and efficiency, but are larger and bulkier than their shipboard counterparts.
Ship turbines have to idle, cruise and change output as the ship manuevers, - something a single-speed powerplant turbine does not do and thus have lower efficiencies.
Turbine metallurgy underwent fantastic improvement over the years, first we started with simple forgings of the speciallized superalloys, relying on combinations of nickle, chromium, cobalt, tungsten and other rare-earth and exotic elements.
Then we found that if we controlled the forging rates, composition and temperature, we could force the metals' crystals during forging and subsequent cooling to align themselves parallel to the direction of the stress -resulting in the so-called directionally solidified alloys.
The ultimate stage of developement is the single-crystal alloy - wherein the whole part is processed in a way that it behaves like a single crystal of the metal alloy, with no grain boundaries, which makes it far stronger (in all directions - not just one!) more heat resistant (it conducts heat evenly in all directions!) and lighter.
I believe that it is manufacture of these alloys that is one of the obstacles that China must overcome in her developement of gas turbines.
Hope this helps,
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
Mods: pls feel free to move this post to wherever it is appropriate - sorry!
Dear Oringo:
Yes, aircraft, ship and powerplant gas turbines are similar in design. But because weight is not as large a factor for a ship as an aircraft, (but fuel economy and reliability are) they tend to resemble powerplant installations the most.
Compared to aircraft, shipboard gas turbine propulsion installations are closest to turbo-prop and turbo-shaft (helicopter) designs. This is because of the extensive gearing needed to reduce the speed of the power turbine to propeller speed.
Next - a simple or open-cycle gas turbine uses only the expanding gases from the gas generator unit to drive the power turbine, and is not coupled to another power generating system.
In a combined-cycle unit, two (or more) fluids, (typically gas and steam) are operated together. What happens is the hot exhaust of the turbine is used to boil water to make steam which then drives a second, steam turbine.
So you have two turbines - the gas and the steam turbine. The first turbine provides heat for the second. The amount of energy you can recover is the increased - resulting in higher efficiency and better fuel economy.
The drawback - cost, because you have to have two systems, gas and steam, this is a very expensive installation.
The efficiencies GE quotes is usually for the power plant installation (burning natural gas) and not for shipboard units. Power plants are optimized for economy and efficiency, but are larger and bulkier than their shipboard counterparts.
Ship turbines have to idle, cruise and change output as the ship manuevers, - something a single-speed powerplant turbine does not do and thus have lower efficiencies.
Turbine metallurgy underwent fantastic improvement over the years, first we started with simple forgings of the speciallized superalloys, relying on combinations of nickle, chromium, cobalt, tungsten and other rare-earth and exotic elements.
Then we found that if we controlled the forging rates, composition and temperature, we could force the metals' crystals during forging and subsequent cooling to align themselves parallel to the direction of the stress -resulting in the so-called directionally solidified alloys.
The ultimate stage of developement is the single-crystal alloy - wherein the whole part is processed in a way that it behaves like a single crystal of the metal alloy, with no grain boundaries, which makes it far stronger (in all directions - not just one!) more heat resistant (it conducts heat evenly in all directions!) and lighter.
I believe that it is manufacture of these alloys that is one of the obstacles that China must overcome in her developement of gas turbines.
Hope this helps,
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
Re: Type 054 FFG status
I think with prior PLAN frigate designs, they were mostly incremental improvements based on prior ships. For example the Jiangwei class has a sleek profile, but was mostly based on late Jianghu frigate design.
The 054, on the other hand, looks like a La Fayette clone:
La Fayette Frigate
Displacement: 3,200 tonnes, 3,600 tonnes loaded
Length: 125 m
Width: 15.4 m
Beam: 15.5m
Propulsion: CODAD with 4x SEMT Pielstick 2100 hp diesels
Sensors:
Thomson-CFS (now Thales) DRBV-15C Sea Tiger Mk2 Sentry radar
Thomson-CSF (Thales) Castor 2J Fire control radar
Thomson-CSF (Thales) TACITAC 2000
etc
Weapons:
1 x DCN 100mm TR gun
2 x Giat 20mm F2F2 guns
1 x Crotale VT1 SAM system
8 x Exocet SSMs
1 x Helicopter (AS 565, SA 321G, or NH-90)
etc.
Type 054 Frigate
Displacement: 3,000 to 3,500 tonnes estimated
Length: ~125 m estimated
Width: 15-16 m estimated
Beam: 15-16 m estimated
Propulsion: CODAD with 2 x SEMT Pielstick 21,000 hp diesels + 2 x MTU 8,840 hp
Sensors:
Type 363S, based on Thomson-CFS DRBV-15 Sea Tiger
Type 345, based on Thomson CFS Castor-II
ZKJ-4B/6, based on Thomson-CFS TAVITAC combat system
etc.
Weapons:
1 x 100mm gun based on French Creusot-Loire T100C design
4 x AK-630 30mm CIWS guns
1 x HQ-7 SAM system based on Crotale SAM
8 x C-803 SSM's
1 x Helicopter (Z-9C is licensed copy of French AS 365N Dauphin II)
Torpedos, rocket launcher
etc.
Seems to me that the 054 contains a lot of hardware that's based on imported French systems in 1980s. This puts the 054's sensors/electronics systems 1 generation behind the current French navy's La Fayette frigates, though it's possible that the PRC has improved the capabilities to match.
===================================
Slightly off-topic
In the post-WW2 period most decommissioned ships were broken up and its steel recycled. Back then labor was cheap and there weren't as many environmental regulations.
Today the cost of breaking up ships and tanks is pretty high, and near impossible in some places due to environmental regulations. That's why we see a lot of ship hulks being towed to India or simply sunk at sea. A good example is the French navy's FS Clemenceau, even India refused to touch it.
I think with prior PLAN frigate designs, they were mostly incremental improvements based on prior ships. For example the Jiangwei class has a sleek profile, but was mostly based on late Jianghu frigate design.
The 054, on the other hand, looks like a La Fayette clone:
La Fayette Frigate
Displacement: 3,200 tonnes, 3,600 tonnes loaded
Length: 125 m
Width: 15.4 m
Beam: 15.5m
Propulsion: CODAD with 4x SEMT Pielstick 2100 hp diesels
Sensors:
Thomson-CFS (now Thales) DRBV-15C Sea Tiger Mk2 Sentry radar
Thomson-CSF (Thales) Castor 2J Fire control radar
Thomson-CSF (Thales) TACITAC 2000
etc
Weapons:
1 x DCN 100mm TR gun
2 x Giat 20mm F2F2 guns
1 x Crotale VT1 SAM system
8 x Exocet SSMs
1 x Helicopter (AS 565, SA 321G, or NH-90)
etc.
Type 054 Frigate
Displacement: 3,000 to 3,500 tonnes estimated
Length: ~125 m estimated
Width: 15-16 m estimated
Beam: 15-16 m estimated
Propulsion: CODAD with 2 x SEMT Pielstick 21,000 hp diesels + 2 x MTU 8,840 hp
Sensors:
Type 363S, based on Thomson-CFS DRBV-15 Sea Tiger
Type 345, based on Thomson CFS Castor-II
ZKJ-4B/6, based on Thomson-CFS TAVITAC combat system
etc.
Weapons:
1 x 100mm gun based on French Creusot-Loire T100C design
4 x AK-630 30mm CIWS guns
1 x HQ-7 SAM system based on Crotale SAM
8 x C-803 SSM's
1 x Helicopter (Z-9C is licensed copy of French AS 365N Dauphin II)
Torpedos, rocket launcher
etc.
Seems to me that the 054 contains a lot of hardware that's based on imported French systems in 1980s. This puts the 054's sensors/electronics systems 1 generation behind the current French navy's La Fayette frigates, though it's possible that the PRC has improved the capabilities to match.
===================================
Slightly off-topic
In the post-WW2 period most decommissioned ships were broken up and its steel recycled. Back then labor was cheap and there weren't as many environmental regulations.
Today the cost of breaking up ships and tanks is pretty high, and near impossible in some places due to environmental regulations. That's why we see a lot of ship hulks being towed to India or simply sunk at sea. A good example is the French navy's FS Clemenceau, even India refused to touch it.
Re: Type 054 FFG status
054 actually is 3900 tonne according to a Chinese military magazine. As for Helicopter, it might be possible that in ASW missions, ka-28 will be put on 054.
054 actually is 3900 tonne according to a Chinese military magazine. As for Helicopter, it might be possible that in ASW missions, ka-28 will be put on 054.
Re: Type 054 FFG status
No thats 052B...
No thats 052B...
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