FFG 054/054A Thread
- Thread starter DPRKPTboat
- Start date
- Status
Re: Type 054 FFG status
ohh...thats a hump covered with green canvas, It could be anything. What makes you think it's a Type 730?? I would bet more money that it's a Orekh Illuminator for the Shtill system apparently being fitted for these ships...
ohh...thats a hump covered with green canvas, It could be anything. What makes you think it's a Type 730?? I would bet more money that it's a Orekh Illuminator for the Shtill system apparently being fitted for these ships...
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Golly sez;
LOL..:roll:
That's right. Hells' bell's. It could be a trash can. Unless you are Superman and have x-ray vision no one knows what lurks under that canvas.
All of this speculation could be stopped if one simple thing would occur. Just one thing. If the PLAN would lay on the table just the basics of what their ships capablities are. Just the basics. That is ,afterall, how most other nations conduct these affairs.
Golly sez;
LOL..:roll:
That's right. Hells' bell's. It could be a trash can. Unless you are Superman and have x-ray vision no one knows what lurks under that canvas.
All of this speculation could be stopped if one simple thing would occur. Just one thing. If the PLAN would lay on the table just the basics of what their ships capablities are. Just the basics. That is ,afterall, how most other nations conduct these affairs.
Re: Type 054 FFG status
It looks like that cover is at around the same position where Type 730 CIWS is located on that photo. That's why I'm saying it's most likely type 730.
It's not just that picture alone. If you looked at this supposed model of 054A
It looks like that cover is at around the same position where Type 730 CIWS is located on that photo. That's why I'm saying it's most likely type 730.
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Dear Guys:
I remember someone (KANWA?) maintained that the 054 frigates experienced problems with their propulsion - i.e., their diesel engines. IIRC they were supposed to be a Chinese copy of a French design.
The only French marine diesels that come to mind are those from S.E.M.T. - Pielstick (Societe des Etudes de Machines Thermique - actually a division of Alstholm Atlantique). I have had the unusual experience of actually seing some of those engines (or a similar type) here in the Philippines.
During our power crises (which occurred during the Presidency of Mrs. Aquino) many small diesel - driven power plants were constructed around the country. A classmate of mine became the engineer at one of them.
I visited him at the plant (in the province of La Union, which is in the north) where I learned that the French marine diesel engines were not as reliable as the equivalent ones we operated from Germany (MAN-Baumeister und Wain/Sulzer) or Japan (Mitsubishi).
He had to keep calling the technicians (mainly from Singapore) over to help with the operation and maintenance, (of course, part of the reason was the local power company's desire to operate the thing on the cheapest, heaviest, dirtiest and most corrisive bunker fuel you've ever seen > 3% sulfur content by weight!), but for us we noted that subjected to similar abuse, diesels from other countries (especially German) would take it, while these babies were rather delicate.
I suppose that they (the PLAN) must have ironed out most of the problems as they are now advetising both the ship, shipyard and diesel engines in bright brochures for export!
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
Dear Guys:
I remember someone (KANWA?) maintained that the 054 frigates experienced problems with their propulsion - i.e., their diesel engines. IIRC they were supposed to be a Chinese copy of a French design.
The only French marine diesels that come to mind are those from S.E.M.T. - Pielstick (Societe des Etudes de Machines Thermique - actually a division of Alstholm Atlantique). I have had the unusual experience of actually seing some of those engines (or a similar type) here in the Philippines.
During our power crises (which occurred during the Presidency of Mrs. Aquino) many small diesel - driven power plants were constructed around the country. A classmate of mine became the engineer at one of them.
I visited him at the plant (in the province of La Union, which is in the north) where I learned that the French marine diesel engines were not as reliable as the equivalent ones we operated from Germany (MAN-Baumeister und Wain/Sulzer) or Japan (Mitsubishi).
He had to keep calling the technicians (mainly from Singapore) over to help with the operation and maintenance, (of course, part of the reason was the local power company's desire to operate the thing on the cheapest, heaviest, dirtiest and most corrisive bunker fuel you've ever seen > 3% sulfur content by weight!), but for us we noted that subjected to similar abuse, diesels from other countries (especially German) would take it, while these babies were rather delicate.
I suppose that they (the PLAN) must have ironed out most of the problems as they are now advetising both the ship, shipyard and diesel engines in bright brochures for export!
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Well I'm not saying it could not be the type 730, just that we cannot see underneath the canvas, and the shape of the hump doesen't really reveal anything. However, like Thuppy said, it's in the same position as the CIWS in the model, so it could turn out to be the type 730...
About those diesels, just wondering, what is the method of power transmition in those pielsticks diesels? Is it a mechanigal transmition or electricial one?
Well I'm not saying it could not be the type 730, just that we cannot see underneath the canvas, and the shape of the hump doesen't really reveal anything. However, like Thuppy said, it's in the same position as the CIWS in the model, so it could turn out to be the type 730...
About those diesels, just wondering, what is the method of power transmition in those pielsticks diesels? Is it a mechanigal transmition or electricial one?
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Dear Goll:
In the case of the SEMT - Pielstick engines (which specialize in medium-speed diesel engines), there would be a reduction gearbox connected to the engines to drive the propellers. In some ships, the gearbox has power take-offs to drive various auxiliaries - pumps, generators, airconditioning, etc.
The vast majority of motorships (ships powered by diesel engines) have their propellers driven through a gearbox. Very few resort to electric drive, mainly because 1) gearboxes are very efficient - some 96% to 98% mechanically! and 2) electric drive is very expensive (and a little less efficient - 94% to 96%), and requires extra personnel to maintain it. Generally only specialized ships that have to maintain stability or position use it.
I remember there was a series of ocean liners that had turbo-electric drive (steam turbine - electric) and used them to power the various auxiliaries on board, as well as limit the ships roll and pitch (to a certain extent) to keep the passengers from getting seasick. Aside from these, usually only scientific vessels, and oil-drilling rigs use electric drive.
There are motorships without gearboxes of course, these use low-speed diesel engines that drive the propeller directly. Only 2 companies in the world now make these specialized low-speed diesel engines (which incidentally are the most efficient internal combustion engines ever made!):
1) MAN-B&W/Sulzer
2) Mitsubishi
MAN is the famous German maker of trucks, the giant Maschinenfabrik-Augsburg-Nurnberg which bought out the Scandanavian engine builder B&W (Baumeister und Wain of Copenhagen) and then went on to buy out Sulzer Bros. of Switzerland. They now control about 75% to 80% of the low-speed marine diesel market, talk about your unfair monopoly! The rest belongs to Mitsubishi.
However, the trend nowadays is to use medium and high speed diesel engines for ships as they are cheaper to buy and easier (if a little more expensive) to maintain. They also consume more fuel than the low-speed diesels, but are more flexible with regards to installation and configuration. In this category there are a multitude of engine builders of various nationalities (such as SEMT) and no monopolies.
As for reliability, the low-speed diesels are famously rugged, but when they do break are difficult to repair (due to the size and availability of the parts, as an example, a MAN/B&W L90-MC would have a piston a meter in diameter and a stroke of about 3.0 to 3.5 meters, with anywhere between 4 and 9 cylinders in a block the size of a dining hall, the maximum output being about 4000kW per cylinder at about 120 rpm).
When using medium and high-speed diesels, you have multiple engines in your installation, if one breaks down, disengage it from the gearbox and turn it off, then you can repair it at sea, or in port! The price you pay is the loss of a little speed. When you have only 1 engine (low-speed), it had better not break down.
For these reasons , I think this is why the Chinese went with the medium-speed diesels on their frigates, like the 054, the only problem I have is that they chose French diesels, (heh, heh, heh!). In fact, you guys in Finland make a very nice line of industrial and marine engines - by Wartsila.
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
Dear Goll:
In the case of the SEMT - Pielstick engines (which specialize in medium-speed diesel engines), there would be a reduction gearbox connected to the engines to drive the propellers. In some ships, the gearbox has power take-offs to drive various auxiliaries - pumps, generators, airconditioning, etc.
The vast majority of motorships (ships powered by diesel engines) have their propellers driven through a gearbox. Very few resort to electric drive, mainly because 1) gearboxes are very efficient - some 96% to 98% mechanically! and 2) electric drive is very expensive (and a little less efficient - 94% to 96%), and requires extra personnel to maintain it. Generally only specialized ships that have to maintain stability or position use it.
I remember there was a series of ocean liners that had turbo-electric drive (steam turbine - electric) and used them to power the various auxiliaries on board, as well as limit the ships roll and pitch (to a certain extent) to keep the passengers from getting seasick. Aside from these, usually only scientific vessels, and oil-drilling rigs use electric drive.
There are motorships without gearboxes of course, these use low-speed diesel engines that drive the propeller directly. Only 2 companies in the world now make these specialized low-speed diesel engines (which incidentally are the most efficient internal combustion engines ever made!):
1) MAN-B&W/Sulzer
2) Mitsubishi
MAN is the famous German maker of trucks, the giant Maschinenfabrik-Augsburg-Nurnberg which bought out the Scandanavian engine builder B&W (Baumeister und Wain of Copenhagen) and then went on to buy out Sulzer Bros. of Switzerland. They now control about 75% to 80% of the low-speed marine diesel market, talk about your unfair monopoly! The rest belongs to Mitsubishi.
However, the trend nowadays is to use medium and high speed diesel engines for ships as they are cheaper to buy and easier (if a little more expensive) to maintain. They also consume more fuel than the low-speed diesels, but are more flexible with regards to installation and configuration. In this category there are a multitude of engine builders of various nationalities (such as SEMT) and no monopolies.
As for reliability, the low-speed diesels are famously rugged, but when they do break are difficult to repair (due to the size and availability of the parts, as an example, a MAN/B&W L90-MC would have a piston a meter in diameter and a stroke of about 3.0 to 3.5 meters, with anywhere between 4 and 9 cylinders in a block the size of a dining hall, the maximum output being about 4000kW per cylinder at about 120 rpm).
When using medium and high-speed diesels, you have multiple engines in your installation, if one breaks down, disengage it from the gearbox and turn it off, then you can repair it at sea, or in port! The price you pay is the loss of a little speed. When you have only 1 engine (low-speed), it had better not break down.
For these reasons , I think this is why the Chinese went with the medium-speed diesels on their frigates, like the 054, the only problem I have is that they chose French diesels, (heh, heh, heh!). In fact, you guys in Finland make a very nice line of industrial and marine engines - by Wartsila.
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
Last edited:
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Mabuhay Duskylim!
My ex-wife is from the Philippines. One of her brothers is a merchant marine. An engineer in fact.
It appears to me that the PLAN, based on your explanation, chose the desiel engines because of their durablity and ease of maintainance. Correct?
Why is it that so many nations do not use the same or similar engines the USN uses to power it's DDG's, CG's and FFG's? The General Electric LM 2500-30 gas turbines? This engine is probally the most reliable marine combat engine ever made. I realize that the 113 & 112 have gas turbines. Doesn't the 112 have GE engines?
Golly knows we may have had this discussion before. I'm am just curious for Duskylim's response. Thank you!
Mabuhay Duskylim!
My ex-wife is from the Philippines. One of her brothers is a merchant marine. An engineer in fact.It appears to me that the PLAN, based on your explanation, chose the desiel engines because of their durablity and ease of maintainance. Correct?
Why is it that so many nations do not use the same or similar engines the USN uses to power it's DDG's, CG's and FFG's? The General Electric LM 2500-30 gas turbines? This engine is probally the most reliable marine combat engine ever made. I realize that the 113 & 112 have gas turbines. Doesn't the 112 have GE engines?
Golly knows we may have had this discussion before. I'm am just curious for Duskylim's response. Thank you!
Re: Type 054 FFG status
Dear Popeye:
Thanks for the Greeting!
The reasons why many nations use diesels in their warships are mainly for the following reasons:
1) Cost
2) Reliability
3) Economy (i.e. long range)
4) Ease of maintenance.
Diesels (particularly high-speed diesels) are the cheapest prime mover around. Gas turbines (like General Electric's LM-xx00) series are much, much more expensive!
Remember we are not talking about large fleet ASW DDG's like the Spraunce class - we are talking about cheap escorts and green-water patrol vessels of limited displacement and endurance - the 054 and 054A class FFG of the PLAN (which is poorer than the USN).
Yes gas turbines are lighter in weight, simpler in design and construction (not in manufacture!) and easier to maintain. But they are much less efficient than diesel engines. A typical diesel has an efficiency of 40%-42% (as high as 50%-52% in low-speed diesels), while a gas turbine is typically 34%-36% efficient.
This means the ship can go much farther with the same amount of fuel. Also diesels are less picky about the kinds of fuel they can burn. Modern medium speed diesels can even burn the cheapest fuel around - bunker C - try that on a gas turbine!
Diesels are lower tech engines and are less highly stressed, so they are easier to make locally (important for the PLAN) and maintain (also important for the PLAN with limited amounts of trained personnel).
They also do not use rare and exotic single-crystal high-temperature alloys (like Nimonic 80A), that are difficult to make and whose constituents are hard to procure, thus saving valuable resources.
While they are not as light and compact as gas turbines, turbo-supercharged, inter and after-cooled diesel engines (like on some German sports cars) are capable of very high output.
All in all they are a good compromise for the ships designer, particularly if he is on a budget. Remember the best is the enemy of the good.
I would like to point out that in European practice, cruise diesels are often combined with gas turbines in the engine room resulting in the CODAG installaton - combined diesel and gas turbine.
You run most of the time at low speed anyway and for that you use the diesels - then switch on the gas turbines when manuevering at high speed.
Yes you are right - DDG 112 Luhu uses GE LM-2500 gas turbines, but her sister had to use Ukranian ones because of a US embargo since 1989 that has yet to be lifted.
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
Dear Popeye:
Thanks for the Greeting!
The reasons why many nations use diesels in their warships are mainly for the following reasons:
1) Cost
2) Reliability
3) Economy (i.e. long range)
4) Ease of maintenance.
Diesels (particularly high-speed diesels) are the cheapest prime mover around. Gas turbines (like General Electric's LM-xx00) series are much, much more expensive!
Remember we are not talking about large fleet ASW DDG's like the Spraunce class - we are talking about cheap escorts and green-water patrol vessels of limited displacement and endurance - the 054 and 054A class FFG of the PLAN (which is poorer than the USN).
Yes gas turbines are lighter in weight, simpler in design and construction (not in manufacture!) and easier to maintain. But they are much less efficient than diesel engines. A typical diesel has an efficiency of 40%-42% (as high as 50%-52% in low-speed diesels), while a gas turbine is typically 34%-36% efficient.
This means the ship can go much farther with the same amount of fuel. Also diesels are less picky about the kinds of fuel they can burn. Modern medium speed diesels can even burn the cheapest fuel around - bunker C - try that on a gas turbine!
Diesels are lower tech engines and are less highly stressed, so they are easier to make locally (important for the PLAN) and maintain (also important for the PLAN with limited amounts of trained personnel).
They also do not use rare and exotic single-crystal high-temperature alloys (like Nimonic 80A), that are difficult to make and whose constituents are hard to procure, thus saving valuable resources.
While they are not as light and compact as gas turbines, turbo-supercharged, inter and after-cooled diesel engines (like on some German sports cars) are capable of very high output.
All in all they are a good compromise for the ships designer, particularly if he is on a budget. Remember the best is the enemy of the good.
I would like to point out that in European practice, cruise diesels are often combined with gas turbines in the engine room resulting in the CODAG installaton - combined diesel and gas turbine.
You run most of the time at low speed anyway and for that you use the diesels - then switch on the gas turbines when manuevering at high speed.
Yes you are right - DDG 112 Luhu uses GE LM-2500 gas turbines, but her sister had to use Ukranian ones because of a US embargo since 1989 that has yet to be lifted.
Best Regards,
Dusky Lim
- Status