F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

This article is pretty damning towards the F-35 program. What raised my eyebrows is that the F-35 B/C models don't have a internal gun but rather has to carry them on a pod.

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CounterPunch is notorious for a lot of anti-military articles.

The facts are that the price of the aircraft are dropping steadily, and by the time full production starts in 2017, the are currently on track to attain their initial desired goal of having an F-35 cost about as much at that time as a fully upgraded F-16.

Now, the cost of the F-16 upgrade/mod has gone up too...but that's what they are shooting for.

In addition, when full production starts, these aircraft will be the most thourgoughly tested and analyzed aircraft the US has ever produced.

Have their been problems? Yes.

Have there been inappropriate decisions? Yes.

But they are being found out and addressed and with the size of this program and its ultimate impact on the US Air Force, US Marines, and US Navy, and allies, I am glad they are catching them in this initial, low order production and testing phase rather than after hundreds of them are already in service.

I still predict that in the end the F-35 will be the next great attack/fighter (as it is called, a Joint Strike Fighter...not meant to be a full dominance air to air fighter)...the western nations produce and will take the place of the current F-16 in that role, but as a fifth generation fighter, with stealth, VTOL/STOVL capabilities, mach speeds, carrier capable, and unbelievable network ability. We just are going to have to be patient to get there.

The nations who are, and who hang with it...because when you are introducing this type of capability across three services, and this much new technology, that type or patience and perserverance is what it takes...as I say, those nations will benefit greatly from doing so.

As to Australia, the F-18 buys are a stop gap. I have seen no indication that the Australians are any where close to dropping out. And I predict once the prograam is in full swing and they are able to get the aircraft delivered, over time their orders will grow to be higher than what they initially signed up for.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I am with Jeff on this. Just take a look at the V22 every one and there aunt was against that Air frame now she is one of the most wanted systems for export.
as for the Gun pod. Gunpods on fighters are anything new. Gun pods on fighters have a long a proven track record.Harrier uses Gunpods, F14 used a gun pod like mount. F4 when fitted with a gunpod and properly trained pilots turned the kill count to the Us's favor.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I am with Jeff on this. Just take a look at the V22 every one and there aunt was against that Air frame now she is one of the most wanted systems for export.
as for the Gun pod. Gunpods on fighters are anything new. Gun pods on fighters have a long a proven track record.Harrier uses Gunpods, F14 used a gun pod like mount. F4 when fitted with a gunpod and properly trained pilots turned the kill count to the Us's favor.

True, V22 is also now selected for Presidential duities and will working as Marine one, the first model is off the production line and in flight testing phase

In Addition the duel refuelling of 2 F35 simultaneously has been carried out by a C130 refueller
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I am with Jeff on this. Just take a look at the V22 every one and there aunt was against that Air frame now she is one of the most wanted systems for export.
as for the Gun pod. Gunpods on fighters are anything new. Gun pods on fighters have a long a proven track record.Harrier uses Gunpods, F14 used a gun pod like mount. F4 when fitted with a gunpod and properly trained pilots turned the kill count to the Us's favor.

You are right everyone and their grandma complained about the problems and cost with the Osprey and although it is now a good working asset for the armed forces doesn't mean their concerns and complains back then weren't valid. With the cost and mismanagement of the program could we have had an EVEN better platform than the V-22 we see today if the program was run better? OR could we still have had the same vehicle we do today but done with significantly less cost passed on to the American taxpayer?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

You are right everyone and their grandma complained about the problems and cost with the Osprey and although it is now a good working asset for the armed forces doesn't mean their concerns and complains back then weren't valid. With the cost and mismanagement of the program could we have had an EVEN better platform than the V-22 we see today if the program was run better? OR could we still have had the same vehicle we do today but done with significantly less cost passed on to the American taxpayer?
Certainly finding and stopping pure mis-management and waste would have helped had they been the principle issue. But, IMHO, as with the F-35, the principle issue was really the engineering issues associated with a complex technology being brought into being for what the aircraft represenst.

There were significant growing and learning pains that were not really mis-management, or direct/willful waste or fraud. There were engineering issues which cropped up as such technologies were developed and applied that ended up being more troublesome and more costly than initially expected.

Those type of issue go with the territory of trying to remain on the cutting edge and field the very best and to do so and keep them as safe and maintainable as possible. Lots of potential problems that can only be discovered by building the technology, getting it out there, and letting the test pilots and then the initial training and maintenance groups work with them and put them through their paces.

IMHO, that is principally what we are seeing (but not all). We have to be vigilant for both...all the hand ringing and politically motivated detractions to the contrary. Those types of motivations and second guessing and attacks, when there is no evidence of any willful infractions, add to the costs as much if not more, on the average, than any actual infractions that are discovered.

The F-22 is a perfect example. The numbers were cut so drastically because politically motivated individuals claimed they were too costly, that the price per unit went through the roof for the technologies that were developed and supposed to be spread over 1200+ aircraft, but ended up being spread out over about 190 aircraf. Talk about waste...that's where many billions were wasted. And then you had so few aircraft that the types of rigorous testing and stretching we see happening with the F-35 were unable to occur before the aircraft went into full production...which in the F-22's case...they never really did anyhow.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Pentagon report warns of F-35 visibility risks
By Aaron Mehta - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Mar 6, 2013 14:48:34 EST
WASHINGTON — Significant visibility issues could lead to dangerous flight conditions, according to test pilots who have flown the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

That is just one of several issues identified by the Pentagon’s chief weapons tester in a February report, published online (PDF) today by the nonprofit Project on Government Oversight.

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Other issues include flawed radar, ongoing challenges with the high-tech helmet required to fly the jet, and potential issues with the touch screen control interface.

The operational utility evaluation (OUE) itself was extremely scaled down from the type of testing that is normally done with such a program, to the point where the authors of the report conclude that “the results of the OUE should not be used to make decisions regarding the readiness of the JSF system to support training inexperienced pilots in an F-35A initial qualification course.”

“Due to the immaturity of the aircraft, the workarounds required to support flight operations, and very limited mission systems capability little knowledge can be gained from the OUE applicable to F-35 sustainment under normal squadron training operations or to sustainment of combat capable aircraft in operational units,” found the report.

“Additionally, the F-35 Joint Reliability and Maintainability Evaluation Team (JRMET) data for the F-35A fleet suggest that the program is not meeting reliability growth targets to meet operational requirements documents (ORD) requirements.”

Inspectors offered up five major categories of training tasks that are normally included in the fighter transition syllabus for other jets. Of those five, only one category was accomplished fully; two others were accomplished partially, and two were not accomplished due to system immaturity.

Additionally, testers found eight “serious” risk areas that need to be dealt with in the jet. Those range from a lack of flight test hours increasing the risk of a Class A mishap to the potential failure of the ejection seat in use with low-rate initial production (LRIP) 2 and 3 production craft.

Other issues identified as high risk include the fact LRIP 2 and 3 planes do not have an automated sensor that automatically releases an ejected pilot from their harness and upon submersion in water, which could lead to drowned pilots; the lack of protection from lightning strikes; and ongoing issues with pilot-vehicle interface that if not corrected leaves the authors with “no confidence that the pilot can perform critical tasks safely.”

“The F-35A air vehicle enabled the successful completion of the Block 1A syllabus for four student pilots during the period of the OUE, training them to safely take-off and fly in clear weather conditions, accomplish formation flight with another F-35 or F-16 aircraft, and land the aircraft — but not train for combat,” according to the report. “Only a very limited set of the full mission systems capability are working.”

The training syllabus was limited by flight restrictions for the jet. The F-35 is currently prohibited from flying at night or during weather conditions such as rain. Overall, “In a mature fighter aircraft, the familiarization phase is followed by several combat-oriented phases, such as air combat, surface attack, and night tactical operations,” according to the report. “The F-35A does not yet have the capability to train in these phases, nor any actual combat capability, because it is still early in system development.”

PILOT COMMENTS LESS THAN STELLAR
The most attention-grabbing part of the report features comments from the pilots who flew the initial OUE training flights. Each student accomplished six flights and one taxi-only maneuver in a Block A-1 configured F-35A.

Pilots identified a number of issues, many of which stemmed from the immaturity of the aircraft.

All four pilots commented that there was poor visibility from the cockpit, which appears to be the result of design flaws.

One pilot said he had difficulty seeing other aircraft due to the location of the canopy bow, while others identified the lack of rear visibility as a major, potentially deadly, flaw.

“The head rest is too large and will impede aft visibility and survivability during surface and air engagements,” commented one pilot quoted in the report. “Aft visibility will get the pilot gunned every time.”

“The majority of responses cited poor visibility; the ejection seat headrest and the canopy bow were identified as causal factors. ‘High glare shield’ and the HMD cable were also cited as sources of the problem,” reads the report.

Most worrisome for JSF supporters is this conclusion: “Of these, only the HMD cable has the potential to be readily redesigned.”

Another common complaint involved the failure of the radar system.

“The radar performance shortfalls ranged from the radar being completely inoperative on two sorties to failing to display targets on one sortie, inexplicably dropping targets on another sortie, and taking excessive time to develop a track on near co-speed targets on yet another sortie,” according to the report.

All of the pilots had issues with the helmet-mounted display (HMD) at some point in their training flights. While acknowledging that the JSF program is working to further develop the helmet, the authors of the report say the pilot comments make it “clear that some of these issues have the potential to significantly hamper more advanced combat training and operational capability in the future if not rectified.”

Not all complaints were unanimous. One pilot complained about the touch screen interface used to control the radios, saying it “is not readily accessible, requires more channelized attention, has no tactile feedback, and is error prone – particularly during demanding phases of flight or under turbulent flight conditions.”

Other pilots did not publicly share any concerns they had with the touch screen, which the report says could be because it was not an issue raised in exit interviews.

SUSTAINABILITY QUESTIONED
Speaking at a Washington-area conference Tuesday, Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, the head of the F-35 Joint Program Office, told an audience that his biggest concerns with the plane were not technological, but rather sustainment issues.

When talking affordability, the general called operations and sustainment (O&S) costs “the big gorilla.” While he took issue with the $1 trillion sustainment figure that is often used, he said if O&S costs aren’t reduced, the plane could “potentially be unaffordable in the future.”

The OUE report also identified potential sustainment and maintenance concerns.

“In spite of the low demand on the aircraft in number and in capability, availability at times exceeded the demand by only a slim margin,” found the report, an issue driven by long maintenance times.

The OUE team highlighted the issue of engine replacements as one potential trouble situation.

“An example where maintainability needs to improve is engine replacement. One unscheduled engine removal and replacement occurred during the OUE, which required 39 hours of elapsed maintenance time,” according to the report.

“For the five unscheduled engine removal and replacements that have occurred in the F-35A fleet, the mean elapsed maintenance time for this task is 52 hours. The ORD threshold is for a maximum crew of four maintainers to remove and install the engine within 120 minutes.”

Portable Maintenance Aids (PMAs), devices that are used for electronic forms management, also experienced difficulties. In addition to long load times, in some cases the PMAs would lead to errors that required outside technical assistance.

“In one instance, the PMA indicated an F-35A required a left tire change when it needed a right tire change. Maintainers could not fix the error themselves; the change required an FSR and extended the aircraft turn time,” found the report.

In his comments Tuesday, Bogdan said he hoped to inject competition into sustainment and maintenance components of the JSF program.
looks like I owe some one An Apology.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The second RNAF F-35 rolls out..

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Second RNLAF F-35 rolled out
Lockheed Martin has rolled out the second F-35A Joint Strike Fighter which will eventually be used by the Royal Netherlands Air Force for pilot and maintainer training.



 

delft

Brigadier
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Jeff, do you consider The Washington Post to be anti-military? In this five part article their main complaint is that LockMart has used political engineering to protect the money flow to themselves at the cost of not developing an efficient and maintainable aircraft:
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Letter 1106 below the article says:
magnifco1000:

You can bet China knows every detail of the plane from espionage. But, they still won't build their own because they are too expensive. Better to let America bankrupt themselves.
:)

By the way, I earlier said Kelly Johnson would have saved Uncle Sam a billion dollars. I should have said several hundred billion dollars, also taking account of the prospective maintenance costs.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Jeff, do you consider The Washington Post to be anti-military? In this five part article their main complaint is that LockMart has used political engineering to protect the money flow to themselves at the cost of not developing an efficient and maintainable aircraft:
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Letter 1106 below the article says:

:)

By the way, I earlier said Kelly Johnson would have saved Uncle Sam a billion dollars. I should have said several hundred billion dollars, also taking account of the prospective maintenance costs.


Yes, but that's Washington Post opinion and point of view. So who is this mysterious engineer analyst that refuses to give out his identity because he was pointing out to the many flaws and signs of the F-35? Now I'm NOT making fun of you or anything Delf, but it seems like every time a journalist writes something like this they always have a secret person who works in the industry of the so and so projects and knows all about it. I have read it and I'll still take it with a grain of salt, but thanks for posting the article though.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

their main complaint is that LockMart has used political engineering to protect the money flow to themselves at the cost of not developing an efficient and maintainable aircraft
If they are complaining of this, then they should make an official charge against Lockheed because what they are claiming is patently illegal and would result not only in horrendous fines, but jail time (serious jail time) for anyone involved in such activities.

But no such charges have been made...no criminal complaint, and no criminal investigation.

If someone working inside knows of this, and has any proof, then that person would also be required by law to come forward, or could be charged themselves as an accessory if such proof were ever forthcoming and it could be shown that someone knew full well about it, but allowed it to occur anyway, thereby putting the national treasury at risk, and our collective national defense..

Not to mention the purely traitorous nature of such actiivite to purposefully produce an unmaintainable, and therefore more dangerous aircraft which will be used for our national defense just so they could make more money.

There is no doubt that Lockheed wants to make a profit, and there is nothing wrong with that. Makeing a profit is not evil, it is how the free market is fueled and works.

Participating in illegal fraudulent activites to increase money flow is not "making a profit," it is committing a crime.

So, when I see charges filed and an investigation initiated, I will believe that something major like this is going on and will be the first to say that anyone giulty of such crimes should be investigated, tried if there is sufficient evidence, and then punished harshly if found guilty.

But none of that has happened. Just allegations from un-named sources...and allegations that sound strikingly similar to the far-left mantra and talking points used regularly to try and discredit military manufacturers. Like right out of their play book.

I am not saying that things like this do not happen...I am saying that if someone knows it is happening and has proof of it, and then does not come forward, then they themselves are committing a crime by not giving the apropriate details of such potentially costly and dangerous conspiracies.

And of course the Washington Post and other Newspapers and outlets are going to jump on such a sensational story...precisely because it is sensational and will drive their own profits. But it used to be that journalistic integrity was at a much higher threshold, and that their editors held them to it, where the investigating journalist themselves would vet and find evidence themselves of such stupendous claims before running it as major news in a national outlet based on the claims of a single un-named source who themselves will not come forward with the details and proof. It used to be that such outlets carred a lot more about how they might be discredited should such things prove not to be so, and they come off sounding like the boy who cried wolf. But these days, they seem not to care...and what's more, the public does not hold them accountable in the market place for making such claims tht 99% of the time are proving false.

So, until I see a lot more...I will tend to take this like Equation indicated...with a grain of salt.
 
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