F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[kwaigonegin]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Actually I don't believe these mathematical models,,,,,,, its like looking at a "sunset" and attempting to describe it in words, you're never going to "completely encompass" the "sunset" in a literary description, nor are your going to be able to "mathematically" encompass aerodynamic lift or drag, you are going to be missing a lot of somethings???

Just to look at the F-35 and its computer modeling,,,, how did vertical stabilizer buffeting get overlooked in all that computer modeling and 50 million dollars worth of wind-tunnel testing?, or aft main bulkhead cracking in the F-35B, or even the wing root rib cracking?????

It is equally misleading to assume that mathematical modeling will give you an accurate picture of real life attrition in any air engagement,,,,

I stand by my F-22 vs F-35 numbers,,,,, I'm sure they're not entirely accurate, but I'm even more sure that the mathematical prediction is "missing a lot" more. AFB

Yes, there is talkin over the scuttlebutt and then there is real world. Let's face it .. in reality if ever there is going to be J-20s or PAK-FAs going up against s a bunch of F-35s we are probably talking some pretty serious #$%^ happening in the world and the 'Raptor' actor would likely be in play. Possibily the only time it wouldn't be 'big' is down the line in the way distant future where the likes of these aircraft have been relegated to 3rd tier type nations.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

things have changed, we will see more info. on this when VLAD THE CONQUEROR comes selling his wares in december in New Delhi .the hindu is a very reliable source and has agood reputation.

The dates keep getting pushed out. I will be surprised if the Indian variant of the current PAK-FA is in anything like full production by 2021. Shocked might even be a better word. The history of the players involved simply speaks too loudly right now.

The Russians, as I have said, do very well when it comes to aerodynamics. But when it comes to electronics, they have historically come up very short on what they deliver versus what they projected. And they have no track record on stealth aircraft at all.

Frankly, I was not surprised when I began reading a year or so ago about India digging into what is actually happening and raising some significant concerns. I had been expecting somehting of that nature.

As it is, the PAK-FA and ultimate Indian FGFA are conjecture at this point As is the J-20. Their actual radar cross section cannot yet be determined because they are still prototypes and we do not know the characteristics of the material they are using.

One thing is certain right now...when it comes to the PAK-FA and J-20 we can tell one thing very easily. They both have big-tailed back sides with big, hot engines very exposed out the back. As it stands, those are going to be missile magnets. They are going to have to fix that when getting to production and we have not seen it yet.

So, I can either believe what they say it will be like...or I can believe my lying eyes when looking at what they are actually flying. when I see those types of things changing, I will begin thinking a lot more seriously about their ability to go up against an F-22 or F-35.

All said, based on where they are right now, IMHO, earliest for true full production, real deployment and initial operational capability of these platforms in terms of true 5th gen stealth capability is going to be closer to 2024...maybe.

If they have troubles getting the perfromance and IR characteristsics out of the newer engines, we may see them initially go into production with what they have...with an intent to upgrade later when they can.

We shall just have to wait and see.

We shall see.

...the only time it wouldn't be 'big' is down the line in the way distant future where the likes of these aircraft have been relegated to 3rd tier type nations. .

Agreed, by which time of course, the US Air Force and US Navy will have long since put the 6th gen aircraft into production.

 

[FORBIN]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Agreed, by which time of course, the US Air Force and US Navy will have long since put the 6th gen aircraft into production.

In more normale F-35A don' t replace F-15 about 470...

But take it guys

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I presume good schedule but depends also next budgets

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[Brumby]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

My intention for posting that article was only to highlight what Hostage said, not what Sweetman thinks Hostage said. Sweetman's opinions are his own, and whether they are right or wrong, I have posted the main articles that quote Hostage without any of Sweetman's musings, so you can build your own opinion on just what Hostage said. They are in post 1771.



You are going far beyond Hostage's comments now. He never spoke about what happens after SEAD/DEAD. Nor did he mention anything about the time it takes to finish a mission. Let's keep it simple. He says he needs 8 F-35s to do a mission that requires two F-22s.

Hostage: So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.

There is nothing untoward there. He is merely stating he needs to protect the F-35 strike package with other F-35s, protection that the F-22 strike package doesn't really need. And that's why he needs more aircraft.

As for synergistic effects. There is no doubt that the more aircraft you have, the greater is your surveillance capability, and the greater is your ability to handle threats when networked.

But for poorer air forces, this is going to be a pretty big problem. I'm pretty sure it costs less to build and deploy 2 F-22s for a DEAD mission than it takes to deploy 8 F-35s.

I think the productivity on a particular matter in a discussion has a limited life. The problem I have with what Hostages said is we don't really know unless an official transcript is released by his office. What we do know is supposedly what was said as reported by Sweetman and that can be mis-quoted for various reasons. If Hostages did not make those statements in which the conversation that we are now having is based on then the whole discussion is rather redundant. For example, in one of the links that you provided, it was also reported that Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago said that the F-35 have the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems with cyber weapons. Unfortunately according to the official transcript, this is what was said : "Secondly, there are potential offensive applications of cyber that also are essential to the way we do business. Traditionally, for example, we take down integrated air defenses via kinetic means. But if it were possible to interrupt radar systems or surface to air missile systems
via cyber, that would be another very powerful tool in the tool kit allowing us to accomplish air missions assigned by the Joint Force Commander."

Here's the entire transcript:

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[Brumby]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

So, I can either believe what they say it will be like...or I can believe my lying eyes when looking at what they are actually flying. when I see those types of things changing, I will begin thinking a lot more seriously about their ability to go up against an F-22 or F-35.

All said, based on where they are right now, IMHO, earliest for true full production, real deployment and initial operational capability of these platforms in terms of true 5th gen stealth capability is going to be closer to 2024...maybe.

If they have troubles getting the perfromance and IR characteristsics out of the newer engines, we may see them initially go into production with what they have...with an intent to upgrade later when they can.

We shall just have to wait and see.

We shall see.

Agreed, by which time of course, the US Air Force and US Navy will have long since put the 6th gen aircraft into production.

I agree that the timeline on the PAK-FA and the J-20 will probably slip but supposedly say by 2025 they come on stream operationally. There is potentially a window between 2025 to 2035/2040 (before the 6th gen plane) where the force structure is of concern and have far reaching implications both for the US and its allies pertaining to air dominance capability. By 2025, the F-22A would be close to 30 years since its first flight. The fact that it can probably still hold its on against new 5th gen fighters is a strong testimony of its design and how far ahead it was for its time. However by then, it is close to its useful life structurally and may not have enough serviceable quantities left to do the job. The F-35 by then is the only production aircraft and game in town for better or worse. Can it step up to the plate to perform air dominance when it was not designed to do that job? The facts that I see today with the F-35 program do not give me the confidence. Obviously this is based on open source information and we have to discount classified capabilities that we are not privy to.
The structural issues include :

(i)The F-35 program management is problematic at best and "acquisition malpractice" at worst. This is a function predominantly of complexity by design (which could have been avoided) and by incompetence (which presumably is being corrected). This has resulted in cost blow out (big time) and delays. The final numbers on the F-35 I suspect will be further reduced as we have seen with the F-22 and B-2 program because of affordability. Potentially with the F-35, there are too few, too costly and too behind schedule.

(ii)The complexity is partly driven by the need to accommodate vertical lift and consequently there are a series of downstream problems that went with it including :
- a program that is unnecessarily complex to meet commonality;
- a design that is compromised including aerodynamics (going against the area rule), reduced internal bomb bay and reduced range (to accommodate lift fan) and a single engine which is potentially overtaxed (and hence the constant engine design issues) and rear view visibility issue because of lift fan location.

(iii) The much hyped fusion sensors and 360 degree visibility which probably contributes to the 24 million line software codes and may not work as planned (if it works). In other words it is still faith based until we see a working product.

(iv) A networked concept model that is constrained by interface protocols between MADL, IFIL and Link 16. In other words, a system that can’t talk to each other before any adversary even attempts to disrupt that communications.

(v)A potential force structure mix of F-22A/F-35 which is negatively skewed when the F-22 program was prematurely axed.
Some of these issues no doubt may and will be fixed with time.

Each of the issues on its own may not be significant but a convergence may set up just the conditions that makes the difference. Unlike you, I do not share the same degree of optimism.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Janes defence Radar cross section Pak Fa

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Don't go by such "reliable" articles, when top notch sources like Hostage and Pogosyan are available. How about reading a research paper by Pogosyan himself?

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What's very interesting is the fact that both Hostage and Pogosyan have marked the F-35 to be more stealthy than the F-22. And everybody thought Pogosyan was in the wrong, while it turned out to be the exact opposite.

Hardly. If you actually take a look at what is happening in the "Pivot to Asia" and other moves most of it is bluff. Infantry to Australia diverted form Okinawa. Talk of SeaAir battle but little in attempting to counter. It's political maneuvering at this point.

It is unnecessary for the US to provoke China. US and China don't share the same relationship as the US and Soviet Union once did. Let's learn to accept one thing, China is far from being an adversary to the US right away.

Yes they can produce a lot of Aircraft. and by 10 years form not the vast majority will still be Gen 4.5 but your assuming that the Russians can carry on there program with out issues on the given time line. the Russian military has a lot of issues in that area and there Industry partner in India has cast doubts.

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Also look at there follow on Carrier program.

A lot of content in the article is rubbish. FGFA is far too important a program for any journalist, even retired officers, to get any information. Even if it is real, it is most likely from officers not involved in the FGFA program, because common sense dictates no IAF officer involved directly in the program is going to speak about it.

Anyway, the person who actually wrote the article is this guy.

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Anyway, the three points he made were:

The IAF’s three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India;

This is rubbish because it is impossible to sign and agree for workshare if the Russians don't share design information. And the more the Russians delay the contract, the greater is the delay for them. This isn't a buyer-seller relationship, this is a JV.

And the IAF chief had already revealed that the FGFA design information was already handed over. That's the reason why even contract negotiations are coming to an end.

Rogozin had recently visited India, and the focus of the visit was the FGFA deal.

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The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia is once again in focus as the Russian Deputy Premier Dmitry Rogozin lands in New Delhi on Wednesday, the visit comes ahead of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s tour to India in December.

And Putin's going to arrive in India in December. So we are looking at a contract signature then. As you already may be knowing after having witnessed the Rafale deal, contract negotiations take way more than just a year. So, the FGFA-bashing article was written just a few months ago. So, it is unrealistic to expect design information came in just a few months.

(b) The fighter’s current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engines;

This point does not make sense at all. HAL's director made it public that the FGFA's engine will be the Izd 30, the new engine being developed for the Stage II PAKFA program. And I doubt even the VVS knows if the 117 is enough or not, since state trials have recently begun.

and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, “a large percentage of IAF’s capital budget will be locked up.”

So, we should cancel the deal because it is expensive? And the officers forget that $6 Billion is meant to be spent over 10-13 years. That's barely $500 Million a year. It's entirely rubbish to think $500 Million is very expensive for a country like India, especially when we are in a JV deal with joint ownership contract. Nobody in their right mind would believe $500 million is enough to lock up the IAF's capital budget which is $6 Billion this year and will be three to four times that in 2021.

Let me also explain another reason for the FGFA-bashing. The author in question is a critic of both the Rafale and the FGFA deal. He began by bashing the Rafale for many years, and now that the deal is near-guaranteed to be signed, he has turned his sights on the FGFA. All for the sake of pushing the F-35.

He is basically our Sweetman or Carlo Kopp, except for the fact that Ajai Shukla is a tankie, and knows nothing about aircraft.

This is from 2010.

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This is from 2011.

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For whatever reason, he has only been signing praises for the F-35, regardless of whether bashing the Rafale or FGFA made sense. And the FGFA bashing definitely doesn't make sense.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Yes they can produce a lot of Aircraft. and by 10 years form not the vast majority will still be Gen 4.5 but your assuming that the Russians can carry on there program with out issues on the given time line. the Russian military has a lot of issues in that area and there Industry partner in India has cast doubts.

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Also look at there follow on Carrier program.

I noticed this in one of the articles you had posted,

A change has been promised at an additional cost. No Indian expert or pilot has had a long hard look at the PAKFA jet to date.

Read more:

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That's rubbish because of this,

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That's one of our top officers sitting in the cockpit. And we have had a long hard look at the PAKFA because it has already finished preliminary design. The contract was signed in 2010 and work finished in April last year, 2013. Both Indian and Russian designers were involved.

And as for this statement,

The Russians are not allowing Indian pilots to fly the aircraft, claiming foreign pilots are barred from flying in their airspace.

Read more:

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This is just an assumption on the author's part. IAF pilots cannot fly the PAKFA because the aircraft is still in development and only company test pilots get to fly it. Similarly, even VVS pilots were not allowed to fly it. I'm pretty sure all the test flights of the F-22 were handled by LockMart's test pilots, and not the USAF. So until evaluation flights were allowed, the USAF only gets to watch, the same as the VVS, the same as the IAF.

Technical documents and past experience with the company is plenty enough for a development program.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The Russians, as I have said, do very well when it comes to aerodynamics. But when it comes to electronics, they have historically come up very short on what they deliver versus what they projected. And they have no track record on stealth aircraft at all.

You will be surprised as far as electronics is concerned.

This a brand new seeker for the R-77, made from GaN.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

What we do know is supposedly what was said as reported by Sweetman and that can be mis-quoted for various reasons.

I will repeat this again. Hostage's comments were not recorded by Sweetman or any of his ilk. It came from an independent journalist called Colin Clark not related to Sweetman in anyway. Sweetman's article has only Sweetman's opinions.

I have posted the original articles and I will post them again.

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There is no Sweetman involved anywhere, so you can read the articles in full.

 

[aksha]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The dates keep getting pushed out. I will be surprised if the Indian variant of the current PAK-FA is in anything like full production by 2021. Shocked might even be a better word. The history of the players involved simply speaks too loudly right now.

The Russians, as I have said, do very well when it comes to aerodynamics. But when it comes to electronics, they have historically come up very short on what they deliver versus what they projected. And they have no track record on stealth aircraft at all.

Frankly, I was not surprised when I began reading a year or so ago about India digging into what is actually happening and raising some significant concerns. I had been expecting somehting of that nature.

As it is, the PAK-FA and ultimate Indian FGFA are conjecture at this point As is the J-20. Their actual radar cross section cannot yet be determined because they are still prototypes and we do not know the characteristics of the material they are using.

One thing is certain right now...when it comes to the PAK-FA and J-20 we can tell one thing very easily. They both have big-tailed back sides with big, hot engines very exposed out the back. As it stands, those are going to be missile magnets. They are going to have to fix that when getting to production and we have not seen it yet.

So, I can either believe what they say it will be like...or I can believe my lying eyes when looking at what they are actually flying. when I see those types of things changing, I will begin thinking a lot more seriously about their ability to go up against an F-22 or F-35.

All said, based on where they are right now, IMHO, earliest for true full production, real deployment and initial operational capability of these platforms in terms of true 5th gen stealth capability is going to be closer to 2024...maybe.

If they have troubles getting the perfromance and IR characteristsics out of the newer engines, we may see them initially go into production with what they have...with an intent to upgrade later when they can.

We shall just have to wait and see.

We shall see.

Agreed, by which time of course, the US Air Force and US Navy will have long since put the 6th gen aircraft into production.

i think we should wait until december mr. Putin visits.before commentig
i back Bar Brother about Ajay Shukla ,guy has been singing f35 since rafale has been selected,while f35 is the 2nd best plane out there as of now,it just doesn't suit the IAF ,it isn't the dogfighter which suits them ,but will alter their style to more like a video game.the change will be too much which will force them to make massive changes in their strategies.while saying this ,the indian navy seems to be interested in f35's.

Russia and India continue negotiations on fifth-generation fighter development
6/11/2014 TASS
Russia’s Sukhoi company continues negotiations with India on the fifth-generation fighter development contract, the company’s deputy marketing director Alexander Klementyev told TASS on Thursday at the Indo Defence 2014 exhibition.
“We conduct negotiations with India under the aegis of Rosoboronexport (Russian arms exporter) on signing another development contract,” Klementyev said.
Earlier, the contract on the fighter’s front-end engineering design was successfully fulfilled.
Klementyev refused to comment on progress of negotiations.
Media reported in early 2014 that the Indian Air Force command criticised the joint project within the FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) program. In particular, Russia was accused of non-fulfilment of its promises. The Russian side said it hadn't received official claims from the Indian partners, adding that the work was going on schedule.

no jeff i am not shocked the IAF expects its first fighter in 2021 as you will see in the article i posted in my earlier post.besides there are bigger shocks about IAF to be shocked about.like with what will they replace the 10 squardons of mig21's and mig27's in 2017.