F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

To start with, I did not attack you personally, nor will I, but when you misquote General Hostage, and misunderstand what he is attempting to communicate, and then make some grand pronouncement based on your misinterpretation, and misunderstanding, it comes off as a kind of "know it all attitude"!

I am here to learn, so forgive me if I become impatient with somebody who failed to see the point in my argument (and no, I am not referring to you).

Neverless my brother, I dare say that I am the first Sino Defenser, who has sent you a friend request, and I hope you will agree to be my friend. I sent it a day or so ago, please check your IN box?

I accepted it the same day.

and now for you, and everyone else on the Sino Defense Forum, my most humble apologies, I am bowing toward Asia, very deeply and sincerely, and begging your pardon sir??? If you will post a link here to the article, maybe highlighting General Hostages statements that are in question, I will either A. acknowledge that you are right and the AFB made a mistake, or alternately, B. Politely suggest where you may be misinterpreting General Hostage----"who is one of my personal heroes", along with General "Hawk" Carlisle

I am not debating for the sake of being right, that's pointless. I am here to learn, and my point was to highlight credible weaknesses in a system. I have always given credit wherever deserved, be it American, Russian, European or Chinese.

Bill Sweetman's article linked the original articles on his website. I will post those again. It's a two part article, so I will quote the relevant parts here, though I would recommend reading the entire thing.

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Hostage noted during our interview that the F-35 pilot who engages in a dogfight has either made a mistake or been very unlucky.

Hostage labels as “old think” those critics who point to the F-117 shoot-down and the presumed supremacy of high-powered electronic-magnetic warfare. “We have one F-117 shot down in 78 days of flying over that country, thousands of sorties. They shot down one airplane,” Hostage says. “And they shot down one airplane because we flew across the same spot on the ground for weeks at a time. It took them multiple weeks to figure out how to shoot the thing. Then they had to get four or five systems to do it. It took them weeks to take it out. I can accept that kind of attrition rate. I obviously don’t want to lose anyone, but good Lord, one airplane over the course of 78 days, that’s pretty impressive.”

Growlers are not front-line aircraft for the first week of war, Hostage argues. They will be useful against a high-end opponent for the same reason that other fourth-generation aircraft such as F-15s and F-16s will be: for “volume” in the face of superior enemy numbers.

“But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical. You’re not going to get a Growler close up to help in the first hours and days of the conflict, so I’m going to be relying on that stealth to open the door,” Hostage says.

The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.

“The F-35 was fundamentally designed to go do that sort of thing [take out advanced IADS]. The problem is, with the lack of F-22s, I’m going to have to use F-35s in the air superiority role in the early phases as well, which is another reason why I need all 1,763. I’m going to have some F-35s doing air superiority, some doing those early phases of persistent attack, opening the holes, and again, the F-35 is not compelling unless it’s there in numbers,” the general says. “Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.”

But Hostage says, as do other senior Air Force and Marine officers, that an F-35 pilot who engages in a dogfight has probably made a mistake or has already broken through those IADS lanes and is facing a second wave of enemy aircraft. The F-35, he says, has “at least” the maneuverability and thrust and weight of the F-16. The F-35 is to the F-22 as the F-16 is to the F-15. The latter aircraft are the kings of air to air combat. The F-35 and the F-16 are the mainstay of the air fleet, designed for both air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks.

There is a bit more about fusion and networking which I haven't quoted, but it is stuff we all know about.

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This part mentions the F-35's cyber warfare capabilities, but it is stuff that the Rafale already does.

More stuff from Hostage.

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This article mentions him stating the F-35 is irrelevant without the F-22s.

Q. Are there any programs you would fight tooth and nail for in the budget?

A. Absolutely. I am fighting to the end, I am going to fight to the death to protect the F-35 because I truly believe that the only way we will make it through the next decade is with a sufficient fleet of F-35s. If you gave me all the money I needed to refurbish the F-15 and the F-16 fleets, they would still become tactically obsolete by the middle of the next decade. Our adversaries are building fleets that will overmatch our legacy fleet, no matter what I do, by the middle of the next decade. I have to provide an Air Force that in the middle of the next decade has sufficient fifth-generation capability that whatever residual fourth-generation capability I still have is viable and tactically useful. I am willing to trade the refurbishment of the fourth gen to ensure that I continue to get that fifth-gen capability. I am fighting to the end, to the death, to keep the F-35 program on track. For me, that means not a single airplane cut from the program, because every time our allies and our partners see the United States Air Force back away, they all get weak in the knees. This program will fall apart if the perception is that the Air Force is not committed to this program.

Q. So you remain committed to the 1,763 figure that has come out?

A. Absolutely. Not one plane less.

Q. What about upgrades to the F-22?

A. The F-22, when it was produced, was flying with computers that were already so out of date you would not find them in a kid’s game console in somebody’s home gaming system. But I was forced to use that because that was the [specification] that was written by the acquisition process when I was going to buy the F-22.

Then, I have to go through the [service life extension plan] and [cost and assessment program evaluation] efforts with airplanes to try to get modern technology into my legacy fleet. That is why the current upgrade programs to the F-22 I put easily as critical as my F-35 fleet. If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22. Because I got such a pitifully tiny fleet, I’ve got to ensure I will have every single one of those F-22s as capable as it possibly can be.

Stuff about training.

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"Welcome to the Sino Defense Forum, stick around, we will be great buds, I promise, brat.

Thanks and likewise.

Btw, my name means this.

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[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Yes indeed, particularly about the F-35 being stealthier than the F-22, as Bill Sweetman (yes the F-35 critic), points out, that is contrary to everything we all think we know about the F-22 vs F-35 capabilities, but the coatings of the F-35 are much easier to maintain at an optimum level, no doubt a factor in his statement?

Personally, I believe the F-35 being more stealthy has more to do with ESM and maneuvering rather than just flying straight at high speeds like the F-22 does.

ESM can help the F-35 pilot orient his aircraft and show the smallest RCS possible to the radar, this way the cross section is smaller than what it would be if he simply drives straight. The F-22 can do this too, but while supercruising, your ability to manevuer is limited, not to mention the avionics may not be as advanced as the F-35's. Being a complex body, the radar would see both aircraft differently. And with better subsonic performance, the F-35 is better tuned to fly this type of a profile compared to the F-22.

And the reason why more F-35s are needed for a DEAD mission is because while the F-22 may get in and out real fast, the F-35 is going to need top cover and escort for the same mission. So, the F-22 has a lesser chance of meeting the second wave of enemy fighters that Hostage talked about.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Simply that there is only one F-22, and no one else has an aircraft in that same league now, nor do I believe that J-20, nor PAK-FA are attempting to meet the Raptor Head to Head in capability??? (for instance, we know the PAK-FA has compromised stealth shaping)? I really see the F-35 , J-20, PAK-FA, and J-31 in the same neighborhood, I believe even the US has decided that the F-22 is more expensive, sophisticated, and capable than it needed to be. TO GOOD.

As already mentioned before, the PAKFA does not rely only on stealth shaping alone. It relies heavily on materials, and that's where most of the stealth comes from. There are two other methods that have been speculated to be on the PAKFA, but one gets laughed at in forums even though it is true and the other is active capability called active cancellation, which is currently in the realms of science fiction as of today.

Anyway PAKFA doesn't have compromised stealth shaping. The current prototypes have deficient stealth shaping, like the engine nozzles which will be fixed in a few years with a new engine. That's why I said we have to wait a year to know more about the definitive version of Stage I and later the definitive version of the Stage II before saying stealth is compromised.

Engine from a 2008 patent.
[video=youtube;dWkQRPzYrlQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWkQRPzYrlQ[/video]

The engine will be ready for installation only in 2017, and the first prototype for Stage II will fly in 2019. Id 30 should start bench tests early next year.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I stand by my F-22 vs F-35 numbers,,,,, I'm sure they're not entirely accurate, but I'm even more sure that the mathematical prediction is "missing a lot" more. AFB

What are your numbers?

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Having tried to address this issue from one perspective, maybe we should take a converse position and assume that Hostages know what he is talking about and that Sweetman is linking two unrelated comments as if it is one case to support a certain narrative that he is trying to project. The words in bold are supposedly Hostages comments. I think the problem here maybe is an attempt to take 1 + 1 to make it equal to twenty two when Sweetman tried to link Hostages comments to the RAND study as if somehow there is a nexus.

My intention for posting that article was only to highlight what Hostage said, not what Sweetman thinks Hostage said. Sweetman's opinions are his own, and whether they are right or wrong, I have posted the main articles that quote Hostage without any of Sweetman's musings, so you can build your own opinion on just what Hostage said. They are in post 1771.

If I overlay Hostages comments of "synergistic effects" into the concept of cooperative engagement and the F-35 acting as nodes in the 21st century battlefield concept of network centric warfare then it makes sense as to the F-22 vs F-35 comparison being made. In a world without the F-35, the F-22 would first go in to take out the high threat targets to be followed by progressive degration of other adversary targets by less capable air assets. In the F-35 world, they would go in as the eyes and ears and operate cooperatively with other air assets operating from safe standoff distances. The DEAD/SEAD activities will be simultaneous and comprehensive and would be measured in days as opposed to weeks. In that sense it would be synergistic in nature and execution.

You are going far beyond Hostage's comments now. He never spoke about what happens after SEAD/DEAD. Nor did he mention anything about the time it takes to finish a mission. Let's keep it simple. He says he needs 8 F-35s to do a mission that requires two F-22s.

Hostage: So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.

There is nothing untoward there. He is merely stating he needs to protect the F-35 strike package with other F-35s, protection that the F-22 strike package doesn't really need. And that's why he needs more aircraft.

As for synergistic effects. There is no doubt that the more aircraft you have, the greater is your surveillance capability, and the greater is your ability to handle threats when networked.

But for poorer air forces, this is going to be a pretty big problem. I'm pretty sure it costs less to build and deploy 2 F-22s for a DEAD mission than it takes to deploy 8 F-35s.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I'm going to keep it very simple. Countries purchasing F-35s will be ok as long as their potential adversaries do not have the likes of j20s and PAK-FAs.
US will be ok because we have that ace up our sleeve in the form of Raptor for escort duties in high threat theater and use them for A2A engagements with stealthy fighters.

Been my point all along.

the F-35s will be very good, but not as good at a single/two ship like the Raptor operates, and that is all General Hostage is saying, in order to be as effective as the Raptor, the F-35 needs the synergistic effect, that those layers provide to fulfill the whole mission, where-as the F-22 is high, Mach 1.8 supercruise, Very stealthy, and if it would happen to get jumped by anything on the planet, it has the tools to win, it is still The One and Only Alien Bird! the F-35 needs a few team mates!

Exactly what I have been saying.

But I also made the point that things are going to be very different if the Chinese or the Russians make a F-22 equivalent with the synergistic capabilities of the F-35. I'm not saying it will be done overnight, just that even the F-35 is 7 years away from being fully capable with the Block 4 which gives the Russians and Chinese time to catch up.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Actually Bar, The Russians themselves stated early on that they emphasized Kinetic energy over Radar Cross section reduction when compared to F22A. They have stated closer to a more conventional aircraft like F35 in terms of stealth. This means that well the Raptors radar cross section is about the size of a marble. F35's being a metal sphere about the size of a small orange PakFa will likely be slightly larger maybe a small apple. This is a product of shaping, materials and coatings. All modern aircraft use composites in high degrees. So there is a small amount of incidental RCS reduction, this can be enhanced through shaping and then coatings.

Now then lets start a little bit on the break down of Hostage.
"I need 8 F35s to attack the dame targets I could have 2 F22 do"
F35 does have a issue. Its its stores. F35 was designed as a comprise between the three jet services of the US and the UK. The Brits and the Marines wanted VTOL so the jet had to loose weight. This means a smaller number of internal weapons hard points. 4 missiles or bombs can be carried inside the aircraft. F22 was designed from the start to carry a full combat missile load internally, 2 sidewinders and 6 air to air missiles. F22 however does trade off. What she is weak in is air to ground targeting. F35 makes up for this and this is where she has options Raptor lacks. Lightning's EOTAS allows her to target more sophisticated air to ground weapons. And yes not JSM for the Air Force... At least not yet. A change of Air Force command could shift that. But I am talking anti tank missiles, rocket pods, conventional munitions which being blunt are more useful for what lightning was designed to be. A stealthy ground pounder. She was designed for blasting enemy grunts first. Although raptor can drop bombs she was not built to CAS. Her bombs are stand off and gravity types. She can't take tanks or bunkers. Her primary aim was to take on enemy fighters and maybe drop a bomb or two. Lightning is a strike fighter.
Now we come back to it why so many lightning's and why do we feel confident about them? First the wars we are fighting. Your pushing that against Russia or China with Pakfa and J20/J31 we should be worried. The problem with that is two fold. 1 ) if it came to that kind of battle, chances of a long conventional conflict are low and ugly. Chances are it would go nuclear. Fast. As such and since most world leaders prefer living, actual major player war is unlikely. If one did happen it would likely be a cold war or short skirmish conflict.
2 ) even then the primary force both nations would have would still not be stealthy. Even with the PRC being the factory floor of the world actual production numbers would take years from entry into service until full deployment. That means that even if a conventional conflict did take place, the main fighter threat of the Russian and PLAAF forces would be 4.5 generation. Additionally the US still has options if it was deemed necessary, the production line of F22 can be reopened if its deemed that the tensions between the three major players warrant it. It would take a year or two but given the Raptor is already at 170+units vs only a handful of prototypes we have time. Finally by 2025 the USAF and USN are slated to have sixth generation platforms in testing those would be in production by about 2035. As I said chances of a major war between peers are low in the nuclear age. But smaller powers is another matter. And by 2035 its likely that lesser states will have the ability to produce or procure fifth generation fighters. But until that time F35 can operate more or less unthreatened. Why? Because her main offence is Beyond line of sight engagement. The main threat targets the most likely fighter jets the US is likely to have to deal with are vintage soviet or even dated America and European types primarily centered around Iran and North Korea.
Amraam and Meteor missile systems mean that against most long range threats of those vintage she would be able to engage beyond enemy range or detection in stealth configuration. This would allow first day of war strikes to break down enemy forces and particularly target enemy air forces. Then lightning's in conventional configurations could follow on with CAS and strikes against selected targets.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Actually Bar, The Russians themselves stated early on that they emphasized Kinetic energy over Radar Cross section reduction when compared to F22A. They have stated closer to a more conventional aircraft like F35 in terms of stealth.

Actually, what the Russians have claimed is exactly that with respect to the F-22, but they have also stated that the difference isn't much. Pogosyan has specifically stated that if F-22's average RCS is 0.3m2 (average of RCS figures from front, top, sides etc), PAKFA's is 0.5m2. So it isn't much. Basically, what they have stated is they haven't tried going beyond the F-22's stealth capabilities, which is typically the goal of a program that started at least 10 years after the F-22.

What they are trying to say is they are designing an aircraft that is as close as possible to the F-22 while surpassing it in kinematics. I don't see a major difference there. Combine F-22 type kinematics, with F-35 type stealth or even near-F35 type stealth and F-35 type avionics, and we have an aircraft that surpasses the F-22, let alone be an equivalent.

The Russians haven't yet talked about the F-35 or compared it to the PAKFA. One of their guys stated they like what the US has done with the F-35's "jacket" type design.

This means that well the Raptors radar cross section is about the size of a marble. F35's being a metal sphere about the size of a small orange

This has become a problem with respect to Hostage's comments. He showed up and just blurted out that the F-35 is in fact more stealthy than the F-22. This messes up everything that we have known about "stealth."

1 ) if it came to that kind of battle, chances of a long conventional conflict are low and ugly. Chances are it would go nuclear. Fast. As such and since most world leaders prefer living, actual major player war is unlikely. If one did happen it would likely be a cold war or short skirmish conflict.

True. However everybody is preparing for a long drawn war.

2 ) even then the primary force both nations would have would still not be stealthy. Even with the PRC being the factory floor of the world actual production numbers would take years from entry into service until full deployment. That means that even if a conventional conflict did take place, the main fighter threat of the Russian and PLAAF forces would be 4.5 generation.[/QUOTE]

I wholeheartedly agree with your second point, though I would like to make two points of my own. I agree that the US has no competitors today, and I also agree that the rival 5th gen aircraft are not in production. But...

These are pictures taken in April 2014.

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The first serial production units of the J-10B. Please note the serial numbers, 101, 103 etc.

These are pictures posted 4 days ago.
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/new-j-10-thread-iii-318-4290.html#post313123
Already at 43 in a span of 7 months. All of them packing AESA radars.

10 years ago, they were barely starting production of their first 4th gen aircraft.

So, 1) The factory of the world is capable of mass production and Hostage knows this too.

Hostage: “I absolutely believe that the Chinese have the capacity to build a high-quality system. I absolutely believe they have the industrial capacity to build lots of them. That’s what worries me. I have no doubt they’ll get, they’re stealing stuff from us as fast as they can, so that will accelerate their technological path, and then their industrial capacity is impressive.”

You haven't taken into consideration that 10 years down the line, the Chinese are going to have a bigger economy and a much bigger industry. And they want a F-22 equivalent 10 years down the line, not today. Because no matter how advanced the F-35 becomes, it is still going to have problems against the F-22. If the Russians or the Chinese induct an F-22 equivalent at the same time as the F-35, that would be a best case scenario for them. If they induct a F-22 equivalent 5 years after the F-35 reaches FOC, even then it is a good thing, because both countries have the capacity to manufacture a lot of aircraft, especially China.

F-35 is set to achieve FOC in 2021. PAKFA Stage 1 IOC in 2017 and Stage 2 FOC in 2013. J-20 around the same time as PAKFA.

2) You have assumed that China will do something that will mean war in the near future. That is a big No. China will not fight the US in a tug of war right away, it is not a peer yet. It is going to take another decade after having matched the US economically, so China will be a peer to the US only after 2030, around the time when everybody is going to be talking about 6th gen aircraft. At this time, both the US and China will have a pretty large 5th gen fleet. The US may take the lead in 6th gen, but the numbers will be very low then, probably a few dozen at best.

This is why I said NATO is all good for now. With a low number of F-22s, and less capable F-35s, the system works for now as there are no peer competitors, and by the time peer competitors come up, both the F-22 and F-35 will have become old and irrelevant.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Actually, what the Russians have claimed is exactly that with respect to the F-22, but they have also stated that the difference isn't much. Pogosyan has specifically stated that if F-22's average RCS is 0.3m2 (average of RCS figures from front, top, sides etc), PAKFA's is 0.5m2. So it isn't much. Basically, what they have stated is they haven't tried going beyond the F-22's stealth capabilities, which is typically the goal of a program that started at least 10 years after the F-22.

What they are trying to say is they are designing an aircraft that is as close as possible to the F-22 while surpassing it in kinematics. I don't see a major difference there. Combine F-22 type kinematics, with F-35 type stealth or even near-F35 type stealth and F-35 type avionics, and we have an aircraft that surpasses the F-22, let alone be an equivalent.

The Russians haven't yet talked about the F-35 or compared it to the PAKFA. One of their guys stated they like what the US has done with the F-35's "jacket" type design.



This has become a problem with respect to Hostage's comments. He showed up and just blurted out that the F-35 is in fact more stealthy than the F-22. This messes up everything that we have known about "stealth."

Oh boy....

Janes defence Radar cross section Pak Fa

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Lockheed Martin has stated that Raptor has a RCS from certain angles of −40 dBsm. As to F35 We have no stated numbers but generally stated it is accepted that the Stealth of F35 is optimized across the forward section to reduce cost and because of needs addressing Vtol.
All I can assume is thaat Either Hostage became one to his mouth or he was taking some other consideration into mind that we in the General public are not aware of.

True. However everybody is preparing for a long drawn war.

Hardly. If you actually take a look at what is happening in the "Pivot to Asia" and other moves most of it is bluff. Infantry to Australia diverted form Okinawa. Talk of SeaAir battle but little in attempting to counter. It's political maneuvering at this point.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second point, though I would like to make two points of my own. I agree that the US has no competitors today, and I also agree that the rival 5th gen aircraft are not in production. But...

These are pictures taken in April 2014.

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The first serial production units of the J-10B. Please note the serial numbers, 101, 103 etc.

These are pictures posted 4 days ago.
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/new-j-10-thread-iii-318-4290.html#post313123
Already at 43 in a span of 7 months. All of them packing AESA radars.

10 years ago, they were barely starting production of their first 4th gen aircraft.

So, 1) The factory of the world is capable of mass production and Hostage knows this too.

Hostage: “I absolutely believe that the Chinese have the capacity to build a high-quality system. I absolutely believe they have the industrial capacity to build lots of them. That’s what worries me. I have no doubt they’ll get, they’re stealing stuff from us as fast as they can, so that will accelerate their technological path, and then their industrial capacity is impressive.”

You haven't taken into consideration that 10 years down the line, the Chinese are going to have a bigger economy and a much bigger industry. And they want a F-22 equivalent 10 years down the line, not today. Because no matter how advanced the F-35 becomes, it is still going to have problems against the F-22. If the Russians or the Chinese induct an F-22 equivalent at the same time as the F-35, that would be a best case scenario for them. If they induct a F-22 equivalent 5 years after the F-35 reaches FOC, even then it is a good thing, because both countries have the capacity to manufacture a lot of aircraft, especially China.

F-35 is set to achieve FOC in 2021. PAKFA Stage 1 IOC in 2017 and Stage 2 FOC in 2013. J-20 around the same time as PAKFA.

Yes they can produce a lot of Aircraft. and by 10 years form not the vast majority will still be Gen 4.5 but your assuming that the Russians can carry on there program with out issues on the given time line. the Russian military has a lot of issues in that area and there Industry partner in India has cast doubts.

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Also look at there follow on Carrier program.

2) You have assumed that China will do something that will mean war in the near future. That is a big No. China will not fight the US in a tug of war right away, it is not a peer yet. It is going to take another decade after having matched the US economically, so China will be a peer to the US only after 2030, around the time when everybody is going to be talking about 6th gen aircraft. At this time, both the US and China will have a pretty large 5th gen fleet. The US may take the lead in 6th gen, but the numbers will be very low then, probably a few dozen at best.

No I haven't I have assumed the near term view for a number of reasons I have not stated that there will be a war. I have only stated that if there is one it would be a smaller scale. And I Stated that the more likely conflicts are with Iran and North Korea you then extrapolated a specific view point attempting to predict the future beyond ten years. I have only stated that the Us will be working on and likely producing a sixth generation Fighter.
You see I am actually trying to avoid discussing a future scenario beyond 2030 for three reasons.
1) My view of the Chinese Growth is far more pessimistic beyond 2025.
2) This is not the Thread or Forum to discuss my political or Economic Views beyond 2020 let alone into the 2030's
3) Predictions about the Future have a habit of being wrong.
[video=youtube_share;hYUMKyyk29o]http://youtu.be/hYUMKyyk29o[/video]

This is why I said NATO is all good for now. With a low number of F-22s, and less capable F-35s, the system works for now as there are no peer competitors, and by the time peer competitors come up, both the F-22 and F-35 will have become old and irrelevant.

And this Statement Shows the potential of proving my point. today we have generation 4, generation 4.5 and then generation 5 fighters. what is a generation 4.5? a fourth generation airframe enhanced with reduced radar cross section features retrofitted and sensor fusion systems such as advanced radar and ISRT systems. these bridge the features of a Gen 5 into a Gen 4. now take a look at the Sixth generation programs. We don't know what a true sixth generation will be but he have a thin guess. This guess states, Smarter, Stealthier, Sleeker, with Superior range and DEW and manned optional. There is nothing NOTHING to say that F22C,F35D,F35E and F35F could not come into being extending the airframes life spans integrating sixth gen features well serving along side F41A and F/A 42 A

 

[aksha]

Re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Oh boy....





Yes they can produce a lot of Aircraft. and by 10 years form not the vast majority will still be Gen 4.5 but your assuming that the Russians can carry on there program with out issues on the given time line. the Russian military has a lot of issues in that area and there Industry partner in India has cast doubts.

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Also look at there follow on Carrier program.

things have changed, we will see more info. on this when VLAD THE CONQUEROR comes selling his wares in december in New Delhi .the hindu is a very reliable source and has agood reputation.

Focus on Fifth Gen fighter jets ahead of Rogozin’s visit
The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia is once again in focus as the Russian Deputy Premier Dmitry Rogozin lands in New Delhi on Wednesday, the visit comes ahead of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s tour to India in December.

The precursor for the FGFA is the PAK-FA, acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (meaning prospective aircraft complex of frontline aviation) also referred to as T-50 built by Sukhoi Design Bureau and first flown in January 2010. Five flying prototypes of the T-50 aircraft are currently being tested.

The FGFA will have advanced features like stealth, internal weapons bay, super-cruise (supersonic cruise without firing afterburner), highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness and network-centric warfare capability. A new and a more powerful engine and Advanced Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) radar are under development for the FGFA. Next generation weapons too are under development. India envisions a 360 degree radar coverage on the FGFA, which will be an unprecedented capability when eventually installed.

HAL-Sukhoi partnership
Once India reaches a final agreement with Russia, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will partner with Sukhoi in converting the T-50 into a Fifth Gen Fighter with 43 improvements requested by India. Specialists in India will be developing an onboard computer, navigation system, data displays in the cockpit and the plane’s self-protection system in addition to co-developing other systems.

The project will have equal investment between Indian and Russia and is likely to cost over $30 billion for about 400 aircraft. India plans to induct 144 of these. Though initially India wanted a twin-seat variant it later relented as the Russians demanded an additional $1 billion.

In 2010, officials signed a preliminary design agreement between HAL and Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau to jointly produce the FGFA for use by both countries. So far both sides have invested $295 million for preliminary design. Differences have cropped up between HAL and Sukhoi on the work share with India insisting parity.

Sources in the Air Force have said that the differences have been sorted out and the deal is expected to be inked in December during Mr. Putin’s visit. A final agreement will clear the way for full development and production.

The Indian Air Force expects to receive the first FGFA prototype by 2016 for user trials, followed by delivery of two more aircraft by 2019. The FGFA is scheduled to get into production by 2021, HAL sources have indicated.

The experience of FGFA will impart crucial design and development skills to India for developing future aircraft.

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