F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I have to say this isn't the first time you've gone off on me without getting what I was saying. You even got AFB in this very thread apologizing on your behalf and saying you would correct yourself, so I am clearly not the only one coming to this conclusion. And when he responded to me in the other thread, he got what I was saying right away and focused his response on the concurrency...

As I stated. I am well aware of concurrency, what it is...and why it is in place.

But your efforts to bring AFB into this, as if though somehow he is apologizing for my own comments, is another example of you going down the path I just warned you about. You need to stop that type of thing.

You disagree with me...and that's fine...I have no problem with that. SD has no problem with that. But do not try to ascribe to me or anyone else what you think our motivations or thinking is, and certainly do not try and enlist and bring other SD members into such attempts.

As I said before, continuing that type of thing will not go well here on SD. It will get you warned, and then if not stopped, it will get you suspended, and then ultimately it will get you banned. Consider this your first warning in that regard..

You're clearly not going to admit to any kind of mistake at this point...

And there you go again.

...but I think you should know that this is not cool. Not cool at all.

I will not admit to a mistake because I did not make one. If you have any history with me, you will find that I readily own up to any mistakes I make, either in substance or in understanding. And the folks here on SD know it. That is not the case here.

I am not trying to be "cool." I simply shared with you my own appealing and predictions. Whether you think that is cool or not...is not really my concern.

Anyway, regarding concurrency and the F-35 program, they are clearly not the same thing, and are not mutually required to exist. Notably the F-22 program also from Lockmart was widely noted to be successful without having to resort to the degree of concurrency that the F-35 ended up with.

I understand that there are any number of people who feel the way you do.
The fact is, the concurrent testing and development of the aircraft is moving the program forward. As I stated, it is also painful.

But any large program like this is going to be painful, particularly in this environment, and particularly with the types of advances they are making. My personal issue with your comments...and I believe I stated it fairly straight forwardly...was that I do not believe that the US Military has "bitter lessons," to learn from this experience.

Sometimes concurrency is called for, and sometimes it is not.

In this case, I believe it is going to bare itself out and the US will be far better off with that aircraft having been pushed hard into development along with the ground it is going to break, than it would have been without it. Far better. Concurrency is helping make that happen, as painful as it may be. As a result, I believe that the overall program will ultimately be viewed as a very significant success.

But this is getting circular because that is pretty much what I have said in the last three posts.

 

[Air Force Brat]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I have to say this isn't the first time you've gone off on me without getting what I was saying. You even got AFB in this very thread apologizing on your behalf and saying you would correct yourself, so I am clearly not the only one coming to this conclusion. And when he responded to me in the other thread, he got what I was saying right away and focused his response on the concurrency aspect of the F-35 program rather than come to the immediate conclusion that I thought the F-35 was "essentially" a waste. You're clearly not going to admit to any kind of mistake at this point, but I think you should know that this is not cool. Not cool at all.

Anyway, regarding concurrency and the F-35 program, they are clearly not the same thing, and are not mutually required to exist. Notably the F-22 program also from Lockmart was widely noted to be successful without having to resort to the degree of concurrency that the F-35 ended up with. Yeah we got some F-35's 'early' from LRIP, but these were clearly non-functional and have required hundreds of millions in back fixes to make them flyable; the US military will likely end up paying several billions more due to concurrency fixes before the designs are truly finalized on each variant. Concurrency is in fact one of the major factors threatening the success of the F-35 program, and is not in any way a contributor to its success or a factor in its continuation.

Here's a sampling of available information on concurrency and the F-35:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Lets chill this gentlemen, I don't want to see you two invited to the White House for a Beer with OBAMA, Solaris, I probably shouldn't have opened my big mouth and spoken for Jeff, I did get a little different take on what you said, than what he did. Now having said that, I almost always agree with Jed Babin, but I don't completely agree with him here, the last article by Winslow Wheeler is a character, that the rather obnoxious brothers on our Sister Forum, of which I am also a member refer to him as a member of the Clown Club, with Bill Sweetman, and Pierre Spey, they are all F-35 HATERs and not relevant to a cogent discussion of the F-35. I think those other two characters are a couple of "persnickety Brits" they used to be on the military channel and use lots of innuendos and hearsay, some of what they say is true, but some is "persnickety".

I think you are both fine gentlemen, and both excellent posters, I loathed the F-35, because I believed it is likely responsible for the death of the Raptor, and I'm rather certain that we couldn't have both economically, and I hate having to go back and fix new airplanes, but the program has been rather poorly run, and I don't believe for a minute that that is all LockMarts fault. But, now that the Raptor is "out of production", I am very thankfull that the F-35 has been in LRIP and in "concurrency", otherwise, we would have two dozen test birds, and NO "operationally coded aircraft". In the very dangerous world we are living in tonight, that would be a "worst case scenario", and Jeff is absolutely right here, without concurrency, it might be five or 10 more years before we had the kinks out of the F-35 instead of well on the way to a very fine airplane, and over half of those 100 or so airframes are operationally coded. The fixes of the past three years have gone very well, and F-35 has become a very fine airplane, being flown to 73 degrees and recovered with no departure in high Alpha testing, being flown to 9.9 positive Gs in the A model, the C model successfully trapping on the land based set-up out East, the B model flying out to the Wasp and successfully operating off her in a flight of two, so yes, I'm willing to foot the bill out of my taxes to get the F-35 up and running and into full production ASAP, I only wish we had 500 tonight instead of 100, that's how critical this airplane is, now that we are limited to around 150 Raptors, so lets hold hands and sing kumbaya, and get back to discussing the F-35, theres NO ONE on the Sino Defense Forum that I "trust" as I do Jeff Head and BD Popeye, I would name either of these fine gentlemen as my childrens GodFather, and Solaris, I certainly do feel your pain brother, but we "need" these airplanes, and their capabilities will serve as a deterant to those smart enough to see their capabilities, those of lesser intelligence will likely need a demonstration, and I say "bring it on".... brat

Jeff, I started this last post before your last post and did not see your post until I posted this, feel free to delete any or all of it, brat

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

... theres NO ONE on the Sino Defense Forum that I "trust" as I do Jeff Head and BD Popeye, I would name either of these fine gentlemen as my childrens GodFather, and Solaris, I certainly do feel your pain brother, but we "need" these airplanes...

Thank you for those kind words my friend.

The feeling, as I know you are aware, is entirely mutual.

God's speed.

 

[kwaigonegin]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I have to say this isn't the first time you've gone off on me without getting what I was saying. You even got AFB in this very thread apologizing on your behalf and saying you would correct yourself, so I am clearly not the only one coming to this conclusion. And when he responded to me in the other thread, he got what I was saying right away and focused his response on the concurrency aspect of the F-35 program rather than come to the immediate conclusion that I thought the F-35 was "essentially" a waste. You're clearly not going to admit to any kind of mistake at this point, but I think you should know that this is not cool. Not cool at all.

Anyway, regarding concurrency and the F-35 program, they are clearly not the same thing, and are not mutually required to exist. Notably the F-22 program also from Lockmart was widely noted to be successful without having to resort to the degree of concurrency that the F-35 ended up with. Yeah we got some F-35's 'early' from LRIP, but these were clearly non-functional and have required hundreds of millions in back fixes to make them flyable; the US military will likely end up paying several billions more due to concurrency fixes before the designs are truly finalized on each variant. Concurrency is in fact one of the major factors threatening the success of the F-35 program, and is not in any way a contributor to its success or a factor in its continuation.

Here's a sampling of available information on concurrency and the F-35:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The cold hard truth is as long as you have politicians, marketing guys and bean counters running the MIC there will always be some sort of concurrency in high dollar and complicated defense procurements. The more sophisticated the program the higher likelihood of concurrency happening.

No matter how sexy or capable an aircraft is, at the end of the day it's just another line item in DoD's books and we all know how lean the government run . F22 was easier to produce because it was designed to do one thing and one thing only before LRIP. it also didn't have the curse of trying to have 3 very different models and to be the jack of all trades from the start. Throw in the partner nations who has more say than thry should and it's no wonder concurrency happened.

I have no doubt it is and will be a very capable airplane and will have no peer in the foreseeable future but anyone who is even somewhat familiar with the program will tell you that the plane was somewhat overhype and over promised.

The good news is even though it was overpromised and underdelivered luckily it is still a damn good plane. Luckily for all of us the lockmart boys know how to build a halfway decent plane inspite of the bean counters and politicians but some harm were done and concurrency was definitely one of them.

 

[Solaris]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

But your efforts to bring AFB into this, as if though somehow he is apologizing for my own comments, is another example of you going down the path I just warned you about. You need to stop that type of thing.

"As if"? I am not guilty of going down any "path" ascribing motivations to AFB. Here he is in his unedited own words, plain as day:

Yes, you are correct Solaris, and we appreciate your posts, I agree with you honestly, but without the F-22, the ThunderHogge II becomes the next best thing. I am glad that we have 100 F-35s flying, and many are already operationally coded, I'm sure Jeff will catch this and correct his statement, but my apologies for him, he does strive to be accurate as I'm sure you do as well.

Thanks for clarifying your statement, and in general I do agree with your statement on concurrency. brat

I understand that there are any number of people who feel the way you do.
The fact is, the concurrent testing and development of the aircraft is moving the program forward. As I stated, it is also painful.

But any large program like this is going to be painful, particularly in this environment, and particularly with the types of advances they are making. My personal issue with your comments...and I believe I stated it fairly straight forwardly...was that I do not believe that the US Military has "bitter lessons," to learn from this experience.

Sometimes concurrency is called for, and sometimes it is not.

In this case, I believe it is going to bare itself out and the US will be far better off with that aircraft having been pushed hard into development along with the ground it is going to break, than it would have been without it. Far better. Concurrency is helping make that happen, as painful as it may be. As a result, I believe that the overall program will ultimately be viewed as a very significant success.

But this is getting circular because that is pretty much what I have said in the last three posts.

Concurrency isn't helping make it happen, it is helping contribute ineffective fighters that have to be fixed for massive amounts of money later on. Concurrency has brought the F-35 repeatedly to the brink of the chopping block, and it is only the massive F-35 Congressional lobby as well as the Pentagon that has saved it again and again. If you have links to demonstrate your view, I'd like to see them. I have posted several from my end, and can post a few dozen more if needed all saying the same thing about concurrency.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

"As if"? I am not guilty of going down any "path" ascribing motivations to AFB. Here he is in his unedited own words, plain as day:

For the last time, Solaris...give it a rest. You bringing AFB into it this to try and buttress up your "side," is an issue and it is on the path you were warned about. I advise you to just stop going there.

In the future, DO NOT RESPOND to moderated comments. Read the rules, that is very plain therein.

AFB has posted his own apologies for speaking for others.

Concurrency isn't helping make it happen, it is helping contribute ineffective fighters that have to be fixed for massive amounts of money later on. Concurrency has brought the F-35 repeatedly to the brink of the chopping block, and it is only the massive F-35 Congressional lobby as well as the Pentagon that has saved it again and again...

As I already stated, I am well aware of your feelings and the feelings of others. The program itself is the punctuation of the concurrency effort on the F-35. It has been and is a huge part of the program. It has been and is bringing the aircraft forward.

The truth of this statement is self evident. We have many aircraft in production while testing continues. We have numerous people who have objected...and yet it has continued.

You can call it the Pentagon, the "huge" lobby, etc., etc. I have heard all of that ad-nausium. But the fact is, the program is continuing forward. Many aircraft are in the hands of the end users, now in all three services,. Testing is improving. Costs are coming down, and more and more nations are selecting the F-35. All of this despite contentions of how horribly flawed the program has been in using concurrent development.

There will be many really good things that come in the various news cycles, and I am sure there will yet be disappointments and problems...it is the nature of such programs, particularly one as large as this.

As it is...we will move forward on this thread about new news regarding the F-35 Program, Photos and Videos. Let's get back to that.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

and may makes a record...













FORT WORTH, Texas, May 8, 2014 – The Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II aircraft fleet, which surpassed 16,000 cumulative program flight hours to date in April, flew a monthly record high for System Development and Demonstration (SDD) with 282 flight hours and 153 flights in April.

“The SDD fleet achieving more than 150 flights in one month speaks to the quality of this aircraft and the commitment of this team,” said J.D. McFarlan, Lockheed Martin's vice president for F-35 Test & Verification. “We’re nearly complete with Block 2B software flight science testing on the F-35As, and we’ll move forward with Block 3 software testing this summer. The SDD program is scheduled to complete Block 2B testing for the F-35B this year in support of the U.S. Marine Corps’ Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in 2015 with its F-35B fleet.”

In April, operational F-35s fleet-wide flew 812 hours, with SDD F-35 aircraft flying 282 flight hours in one month. In 2014, through April, F-35A test aircraft flew 420 hours; F-35B test aircraft flew 281 hours; and F-35C test aircraft flew 222 hours. Operational F-35s of all three variants flew 2,790 hours for the year.

Operational F-35s at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., flew 515 flight hours in April, and operational F-35 at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Ariz., flew 172 hours. Eglin’s 33rd Fighter Wing is home to 48 F-35A/B/Cs and provides training for U.S. military and program partner nation pilots and maintenance personnel. Yuma is home to the Marine Corps’ first operational F-35B Short Takeoff/Vertical Landing aircraft.

Among the record SDD flights, the F-35B version completed its 700th vertical landing, and it began crosswind takeoffs and landings and expeditionary operations.

The F-35 Lightning II, a 5th generation fighter, combines advanced low observable stealth technology with fighter speed and agility, fully fused sensor information, network-enabled operations and advanced sustainment. Three distinct variants of the F-35 will replace the A-10 and F-16 for the U.S. Air Force, the F/A-18 for the U.S. Navy, the F/A-18 and AV-8B Harrier for the U.S. Marine Corps, and a variety of fighters for at least 10 other countries. Following the U.S. Marine Corps’ 2015 IOC, the U.S. Air Force and Navy intend to declare IOC in 2016 and 2018, respectively.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security and aerospace company that employs approximately 113,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The Corporation’s net sales for 2013 were $45.4 billion

 

[Franklin]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Lets chill this gentlemen, I don't want to see you two invited to the White House for a Beer with OBAMA, Solaris, I probably shouldn't have opened my big mouth and spoken for Jeff, I did get a little different take on what you said, than what he did. Now having said that, I almost always agree with Jed Babin, but I don't completely agree with him here, the last article by Winslow Wheeler is a character, that the rather obnoxious brothers on our Sister Forum, of which I am also a member refer to him as a member of the Clown Club, with Bill Sweetman, and Pierre Spey, they are all F-35 HATERs and not relevant to a cogent discussion of the F-35. I think those other two characters are a couple of "persnickety Brits" they used to be on the military channel and use lots of innuendos and hearsay, some of what they say is true, but some is "persnickety".

I think you are both fine gentlemen, and both excellent posters, I loathed the F-35, because I believed it is likely responsible for the death of the Raptor, and I'm rather certain that we couldn't have both economically, and I hate having to go back and fix new airplanes, but the program has been rather poorly run, and I don't believe for a minute that that is all LockMarts fault. But, now that the Raptor is "out of production", I am very thankfull that the F-35 has been in LRIP and in "concurrency", otherwise, we would have two dozen test birds, and NO "operationally coded aircraft". In the very dangerous world we are living in tonight, that would be a "worst case scenario", and Jeff is absolutely right here, without concurrency, it might be five or 10 more years before we had the kinks out of the F-35 instead of well on the way to a very fine airplane, and over half of those 100 or so airframes are operationally coded. The fixes of the past three years have gone very well, and F-35 has become a very fine airplane, being flown to 73 degrees and recovered with no departure in high Alpha testing, being flown to 9.9 positive Gs in the A model, the C model successfully trapping on the land based set-up out East, the B model flying out to the Wasp and successfully operating off her in a flight of two, so yes, I'm willing to foot the bill out of my taxes to get the F-35 up and running and into full production ASAP, I only wish we had 500 tonight instead of 100, that's how critical this airplane is, now that we are limited to around 150 Raptors, so lets hold hands and sing kumbaya, and get back to discussing the F-35, theres NO ONE on the Sino Defense Forum that I "trust" as I do Jeff Head and BD Popeye, I would name either of these fine gentlemen as my childrens GodFather, and Solaris, I certainly do feel your pain brother, but we "need" these airplanes, and their capabilities will serve as a deterant to those smart enough to see their capabilities, those of lesser intelligence will likely need a demonstration, and I say "bring it on".... brat

Jeff, I started this last post before your last post and did not see your post until I posted this, feel free to delete any or all of it, brat

I'm not going to argue about the planes performence or the way decisions are made in Washington DC on these kinds of issues. But in my view concurrency is a disastrous mistake. First of all you now have 100 planes that are incapable to perform battle. If tomorrow WWIII breaks out these planes won't be fighting in the frontlines as they won't be fighting at all. And you have already paid more than a billion dollars for them. Concurrency has in effect locked the government in politically and wedded them to the F-35 and leaving them no choice but to continue the program come what may. And the cost keeps rising as they have to constantly update and make changes to the older planes inorder to resolve the problems and to iron out the bugs. To me it would be logical to build a handful of prototypes to make sure you get all the systems right and get the production line right before starting mass production. With such a sophisticated plane you know that they can't get it right the first time and will need years of testing. So what is the logic starting to mass produce a plane that you know won't be combat capable ?

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I'm not going to argue about the planes performence or the way decisions are made in Washington DC on these kinds of issues. But in my view concurrency is a disastrous mistake. First of all you now have 100 planes that are incapable to perform battle.

Yes, and without concurrency, you would have maybe 10. But those 100+ aircraft are coming along and being tested at their level for various capabilities. If World War broke out tomorrow, they would rapidly be made combat worthy to whatever extent they could, and improved upon rapidly after that. In the mean time, the program moves forward much more rapidly.

Concurrency has in effect locked the government in politically and wedded them to the F-35 and leaving them no choice but to continue the program come what may. And the cost keeps rising as they have to constantly update and make changes to the older planes inorder to resolve the problems and to iron out the bugs.

Well, as I have said. There is plenty of room for disagreement...and I have no problem with that.

Concurreny has been painful...no doubt...which I have readily admitted.

At the same time, as stated, it has allowed this aircraft, at a time when we very much need it...to come forward. As brat pointed out, despite the issues, instead of a few prototype aircraft, which would be much constrained in the amount of testing they could do, we have 150 aircraft in the hands of military end-users and they are testing this aircraft...and from an end user perspective...like no aircraft has ever been tested before. And so the program is very rapidly coming forwad and is benefitting from all of that.

In the end...it will prove its worth...and, inf act, is doing so now.

And the costs are coming down on the aircraft. Testing is expensive, but it is helping production identify and alleviate issues.

Remember, in the end, there are not going to be hundreds of F-35s, there are going to be thousands...and, IMHO, that pay back will be immense.

 

[Equation]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Here's a good article and video about the F-35 program.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!