F-22P and 053 series

asif iqbal said:

... the iceing on the cake would be to have Babur cruise missiles launch from SSK with nuclear capability, that would be a first!

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Actually the Israeli Dolphin submarines have had this capability for some time.

The 1st three Dolphins were specifially built as heavily modified German Type 209 subs, in fact so modified that they are not even included as a Type 209 sub-class but are a clss of their own. The second three are heavily modified German Type 212 subs (12 meters longer and 500 tons heavier) with Air Indeppendent proulsion (AIP), again, being in a class of their own as Dolphin IIs. In both cases longer submarines with heavier displacement.

These subs also added four, large 650mm firing tubes in addition to the six normal 533mm tubes. Many feel these larger tubes were added specifically to enable the launch of SLCMs.

It is widely believed that the Israeli subs arein fact equiped to carry and fire both conventional and nuclear SLCMs. In fact the US Navy monitored a test of one of the Dolphins firing 1,500 km missiles in the Indian Ocean in May of 2000. Two missiles were launched. So it is clear that they do in fact have this capability.

The first three Dolphins (heavily modified Type 209 design) were commissioned in 1999-2000. The fourth and fifth vessels (heavily modified Type 212 Design) were delivered to the Israeli Navy in 2012 and 2013. One is already commisisoned and the second is to be commissioned in 2014. One more is being built.


Israel National News and the Jerusalem Post both printed articles on Sunday, July 14, 2013 indicating that . The target were a stockpile of Russian Yahkont advanced surface to surface missiles and their associated radars and sensors that the Syrian Navy had recently taken delivery of.

Actually, conventional patrol submarines with nuclear cruise missile capability is as old as nuclear cruise missile itself.

USS Tunny was converted to fire Regulus I nuclear cruise missile in 1955.

Soviet Whisky and Juliett classes were all in essence SSKs with nuclear cruise missile capabilities.

chuck731 said:

Actually, conventional patrol submarines with nuclear cruise missile capability is as old as nuclear cruise missile itself.

USS Tunny was converted to fire Regulus I nuclear cruise missile in 1955.

Soviet Whisky and Juliett classes were all in essence SSKs with nuclear cruise missile capabilities.

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Yep..this is VERY off topic, but Tunny was a World War II GATO class sub that perfomed eight or nine war patrols in the Pacific during the war.

She was converted in 1955 and had a hanger on deck for the missiles. She had to surface to fire, but was outiftted this way for 12 years. I believe a second GATO class was also converted.


After the Polaris missile came along and with the Vietnam War, she was converted back to a regular sub...and then an amphibious assault sub, and was finally stricken in 1969 and used in a SINKEX in 1970.

Another two subs, the Graybacks were originally designed to be attack subs, but right upon completion the Grayback was converted to fire the Regulas II missiles, and her sister was built that way. Again, with the advent of the Polaris nuclear subs, these subs were reconfigured for other duties.

But the US had a least four such guided missile subs in the 50s and 60s. But they were not able to fire submerged, and they carrried nuclear missiles for nuclear deterrent and did not carry convetional surface to surface missiles to my knowledge. This is why with the first nuclear powered SSBNs they became obsolete.

yeah guys i know about SSK with nukes, its my bad, when i said "first" i meant a first for Pakistan NOT a first for a SSK in the world, the Army and Air Force have demonstrated their nuclear capability but the Navy doesnt have the weapon which can change the course of the war, so i should have said its a first for the PN to have this capability and the last branch of the armed forces who can have nuclear deterrence

asif iqbal said:

yeah guys i know about SSK with nukes, its my bad, when i said "first" i meant a first for Pakistan NOT a first for a SSK in the world, the Army and Air Force have demonstrated their nuclear capability but the Navy doesnt have the weapon which can change the course of the war, so i should have said its a first for the PN to have this capability and the last branch of the armed forces who can have nuclear deterrence

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No probs, asif. I understand now.

But it did lead to a nice OT discussion and some good info and pics.

Your analysis and knowledge is always great to share Jeff!

PNS Aslat the 4th F22P frigate the first one to be built at Karachi Dockyard has been commissioned this year and has been deployed quite extensively this year including a visit to Russia for the first time

It would have been nice if Pakistan agreed with China a series production of FFG starting with 4 x F22P then 4 x F23P and then 4 x F24P FFG to total 12 Frigates each once a newer version of the previous, that means we could retire the 6 x Amazon Class and no need for the single OHP

The 3rd F22P was launched in 2009 which means we could have seen 3 launches from 2010-2012 of a newer variant F23P with the 4th again built at Karachi

Then from 2013-2015 3 further launches of F24P frigates with the last one built at Karachi Dockyard around 2017


So over all from 2007-2009 we have 3 x F22P launched in China 1 from KDW (2011)

2010-2012 3 x F23P from China 1 from KDW (2014)

2013-2015 3 x F24P from China 1 from KDW (2017)

Add 18 x Z9C/D helicopters for FFG coverage and you have a very nice naval FFG fleet right there
Price wise it would be easily do-able, its roughly $ 3 billion over 10 years which is $300 million per year which is well within the PN new equipment procurement budget, I would think that F24P would have a VLS system but thanks to our uneducated backward Zaradri and Co corrupt leaders this never happened

$800 million for four F22P
$1 billion for four F23P
And $1.2 billion for four F24P

I do hope the new deal for FFG and SSK does go though

asif iqbal said:

PNS Aslat the 4th F22P frigate the first one to be built at Karachi Dockyard has been commissioned this year and has been deployed quite extensively this year including a visit to Russia for the first time

It would have been nice if Pakistan agreed with China a series production of FFG starting with 4 x F22P then 4 x F23P and then 4 x F24P FFG to total 12 Frigates each once a newer version of the previous, that means we could retire the 6 x Amazon Class and no need for the single OHP

The 3rd F22P was launched in 2009 which means we could have seen 3 launches from 2010-2012 of a newer variant F23P with the 4th again built at Karachi

Then from 2013-2015 3 further launches of F24P frigates with the last one built at Karachi Dockyard around 2017


So over all from 2007-2009 we have 3 x F22P launched in China 1 from KDW (2011)

2010-2012 3 x F23P from China 1 from KDW (2014)

2013-2015 3 x F24P from China 1 from KDW (2017)

Add 18 x Z9C/D helicopters for FFG coverage and you have a very nice naval FFG fleet right there
Price wise it would be easily do-able, its roughly $ 3 billion over 10 years which is $300 million per year which is well within the PN new equipment procurement budget, I would think that F24P would have a VLS system but thanks to our uneducated backward Zaradri and Co corrupt leaders this never happened

$800 million for four F22P
$1 billion for four F23P
And $1.2 billion for four F24P

I do hope the new deal for FFG and SSK does go though

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Any specs on the F23P and F24P. Is it confirmed that they will be built in the next decade? Will they resemble the type 053 or 054 or a totally new design?

asif iqbal said:

PNS Aslat the 4th F22P frigate the first one to be built at Karachi Dockyard has been commissioned this year and has been deployed quite extensively this year including a visit to Russia for the first time

It would have been nice if Pakistan agreed with China a series production of FFG starting with 4 x F22P then 4 x F23P and then 4 x F24P FFG to total 12 Frigates each once a newer version of the previous, that means we could retire the 6 x Amazon Class and no need for the single OHP

The 3rd F22P was launched in 2009 which means we could have seen 3 launches from 2010-2012 of a newer variant F23P with the 4th again built at Karachi

Then from 2013-2015 3 further launches of F24P frigates with the last one built at Karachi Dockyard around 2017


So over all from 2007-2009 we have 3 x F22P launched in China 1 from KDW (2011)

2010-2012 3 x F23P from China 1 from KDW (2014)

2013-2015 3 x F24P from China 1 from KDW (2017)

Add 18 x Z9C/D helicopters for FFG coverage and you have a very nice naval FFG fleet right there
Price wise it would be easily do-able, its roughly $ 3 billion over 10 years which is $300 million per year which is well within the PN new equipment procurement budget, I would think that F24P would have a VLS system but thanks to our uneducated backward Zaradri and Co corrupt leaders this never happened

$800 million for four F22P
$1 billion for four F23P
And $1.2 billion for four F24P

I do hope the new deal for FFG and SSK does go though

Click to expand...

what's the latest on these negotiations? I guess cost is always an issue for cash strapped PN.

tphuang said:

what's the latest on these negotiations? I guess cost is always an issue for cash strapped PN.

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well anything that we do have is sufficient for deterrence and enough for the enemy’s, anything else is just icing on the cake