F-22 Raptor 5th Generation Stealth Fighter

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

slackpiv said:

Numerous sources tend to be fans of the PLA posting flas information. Half the pictures are probably psed. Frankly i'm sticking with sino-defence's information on the info that it is based on early versions of the APG-66. Its just not feasable for China to jump so many generations. There has not bee one credible source that has pointed to the KJ-3 evolving into a PAR. Your sentences contridict each other. the KLJ-3 does not dominate the apg-66.The APG-66 has constnatly been upgraded and are only used in the A/B. the C/D uses the APG-68. THE E/F block 60 uses an AESA model.

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Right, the sources I listed are by Richard Fisher, JDW and Kanwa. Do those sound like fans of PLA to you? Mind you, Richard Fisher was considered to be good enough to present to the American congress.

As for the pictures, they were straight out of the Beijing airshow, they were Russian radars actually. Why would Chinese people ps the Russian radars? The stats on them weren't even impressive.

As I said, KLJ-3 is evolving into PAR but I'm not sure if it's there yet.
An assessment of potential multi-function fire-control radar systems for the new stealth fighter is also under way, with candidates including China's indigenous Type 1473 design. According to an industry source, this has a search distance of 150km and can track up to 15 targets, attacking between six and eight of them simultaneously. The design is currently undergoing upgrade to allow for the integration of a phased-array antenna.

As for F-16, there is no question that APG-80 is a great radar. As for APG-68, there was a significant increase in performance from version 5 to 9 for block 50/52, so I would say it's better than KLJ-3 for sure. However, for the early model of APG-68 on block 25, all it had was the ability to track 10.

I've been saying all along. KLJ-3 beat out Zhemchug (basically similar stat to zhuk-me) with its performance. Check Zhuk-me's stats, KLJ-3 should be at least that good.

On plaaf's radar by Richard Fisher,
"By 2002 reports began to emerge from Mainland sources that NRIET company had produced a new multi-mode radar for the Chengdu J-10, identified as the Type 1473. One report from late 2003, while not identifying the radar, says the J-10?s radar has a range of 150km and can track 20 targets while attacking four.[158] If true, such a radar would have nearly twice the performance of the Russian N001 on the Su-27. This would also indicate that at least for planar array style radar, the PLA is now capable of producing radar matching mid-1990s levels of performance. It is very likely that the PLA is now developing more advanced phased array-based fighter radar systems for further upgrades of current fighters and for its future 5th generation fighter programs."

As I have said all along, there are basically two set of numbers, both point to around 150-160KM in search range, track/engage are 15/6-8 or 20/4.

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

tphuang said:

it was denied AMRAAM, so all it had was AIM-9C I think

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9c is old for real (60s early 70s tops) and not even all aspect. Seriously doubt the yanks would use anything older than 9L. 9M is current with 9X entering service.

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

Gollevainen said:

sounds pretty much the same additue that was evident in the late 50's and early 60's...that missiles have surpassed cannons totaly in air-to-air combat...they never anticipated that dogfights would occur between jet fighters...Well USAF learned their leassons in Vietnam...

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Except now there really is the technology there to delivier on the fancy promises. Allowing oneself to get sucked it to a gun fight these days shows poor judgement and skills.

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

Well i'm no fighterpilot...so it's hard to say. But i was more poiting out that cannons are regular fit in every modern fighter...al least the planners have had somesort of "gunfights" in mind. Tough you're propaply right, cannons are most likely intended as last dich defence...

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

Gollevainen said:

Well i'm no fighterpilot...so it's hard to say. But i was more poiting out that cannons are regular fit in every modern fighter...al least the planners have had somesort of "gunfights" in mind. Tough you're propaply right, cannons are most likely intended as last dich defence...

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They are also used for fireing warning shots. There was an incident during a recent peacekeeping mission in sierra leone were some warningshots at some nosy rebells/terrorists on the ground would have been in order but the raf harriers did not have any gunpods fitted. oops! At some point there was talk about RAF ditching the bk27 for the eurofarter. Do not recall what came of that little debate.

in a2a combat both sides try to make it an as uneven a fight as possible using ew ecm fighter controllers etc. once they merge to a wvr fight too much is left to luck and chance.

excellent site on basic a2a combat. The impact of modern iir missiles, active radar and counter measures is not discussed, iirc.

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

vincelee said:

... etc ....
Raven, I'm actually interesting in your version of the F-117 incident. What I've heard is that the flight pass of the nighthawk didn't change for 2 weeks, nor did the time of strike. Thus the OPFOR was able to put a mobile system in place to shoot it down.

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This is the latest update of the F-117 incident ... :coffee:

SKORENOVAC, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) — Col. Zoltan Dani was behind one of the most spectacular losses ever suffered by the U.S. Air Force: the 1999 shooting down of an F-117A stealth fighter.
Now, for the first time since that night six years ago, the former Serbian commander of an anti-aircraft missile battery has consented to speak publicly to Western media about the circumstances surrounding the unprecedented downing of a U.S. stealth plane. The hit on the radar-evading plane on March 27, 1999, during the 78-day NATO campaign over Serbia, triggered doubts not only about the F-117s, but also about the entire concept of stealth technology on which the U.S. Air Force has based its newest generation of warplanes. Military analysts debated how the planes would fare in a war against a militarily sophisticated opponent if an obsolescent air defense such as Serbia's could manage to track and destroy them. In an interview this week with The Associated Press, Dani said the F-117 was detected and shot down during a moonless night — just three days into the war — by a Soviet-made SA-3 Goa surface-to-air missile.
"We used a little innovation to update our 1960s-vintage SAMs to detect the Nighthawk," Dani said. He declined to discuss specifics, saying the exact nature of the modification to the warhead's guidance system remains a military secret. It involved "electromagnetic waves," was all that Dani — who now owns a small bakery in this sleepy village just north of Belgrade — would divulge. The F-117 was developed in great secrecy in the 1970s. It entered service in 1983 but was not revealed officially until 1988. It saw its first combat in the 1989 invasion of Panama and was a star of the 1991 Gulf War.
"Long before the 1999 war, I took keen interest in the stealth fighter and on how it could be detected," said Dani, who has been hailed in Serbia as a war hero. "And I concluded that there are no invisible aircraft, but only less visible."
The F-117 was one of only two allied aircraft shot down in the war. The other was an F-16 fighter, which the U.S. Air Force said was also hit by an SA-3. Both pilots bailed out and were rescued by NATO helicopters. Dani said his anti-aircraft missile regiment, tasked with the anti-aircraft defense of the Serbian capital, Belgrade, downed the F-16. Several other NATO warplanes were damaged by missile hits but managed to struggle back to bases in neighboring Bosnia, Macedonia or Croatia. At least one is said to have ditched into the Adriatic Sea as it attempted to regain its base in Italy. Despite NATO's near-total air supremacy, the alliance never succeeded in knocking out Dani's batteries. The Serb SAMs remained a potent threat throughout the conflict, forcing attacking warplanes to altitudes above 15,000 feet, where they were safe from surface-to-air missiles but far less effective in a ground attack role. NATO won the war in June 1999, after President Slobodan Milosevic decided to withdraw his largely intact army from Kosovo, following the destruction of numerous government buildings, bridges and other infrastructure targets throughout Serbia.
"The Americans entered the war a bit overconfident," Dani said. "They thought they could crush us without real resistance."
"At times, they acted like amateurs," Dani said, listing some ways the Serbs managed to breach NATO communications security, including eavesdropping on pilots' conversations with AWACS surveillance planes.
"I personally listened to their pilots' conversations, learning about their routes and bombing plans," Dani said.
Dani said that his unit has had annual reunions on every March 27 since 1999 when a cake in the shape of the F-117 is served.

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

Its long been known in the USAF that the f117 flew the same route from the night before and had its bomb bay doors open long enough on the night it was shot down to have a larger RCS.

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

Fisher drums up the China threat for political purposes. Kanwa's credibility is not that high either. JDW just repeats what it hears from these and other unreliable sources. So much behind China watching is policized to squeeze the US Congress for military spending. And fans who attach their ego to the Chinese military happily believe these lies.

On the other hand, the Raptor must be the wet dream of PRC hawks, hardliners, and all those advocating higher military spending. And so the arms race begins. Who suffers? Poor people who could've been helped by the social programs that didn't get funded. And such is the sad truth world that we live in. :nana:

By the way, this thread is little more than a glorified pissing contest.

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

The J-14 would have the ability to take down the raptor (based on some interviews in China). The F-15 is very old, like some 30 years old, the flanker and J-10 could match this plane both in speed and performance but the raptor is superior in dogfight. at the moment, perhaps only Chinese air defense can take out the raptor at this time. (hey, if a Chinese SAM can take out a stealthy global hawk, why not a raptor?)

Re: F-22 Raptor: The New Threat to the PLAAF

Knarfo said:

They are also used for fireing warning shots. There was an incident during a recent peacekeeping mission in sierra leone were some warningshots at some nosy rebells/terrorists on the ground would have been in order but the raf harriers did not have any gunpods fitted. oops! At some point there was talk about RAF ditching the bk27 for the eurofarter. Do not recall what came of that little debate.

in a2a combat both sides try to make it an as uneven a fight as possible using ew ecm fighter controllers etc. once they merge to a wvr fight too much is left to luck and chance.

excellent site on basic a2a combat. The impact of modern iir missiles, active radar and counter measures is not discussed, iirc.

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I think it was that the british felt the bk-27 mauser was not neccesary, so they didnt want it any more. but taking away the gun would require several signifigant airframe changes, which is too costly. so the brits kept the gun but decided not to use it.