European Economics Thread

gelgoog

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looks like EU gas prices are down, seems like a mild winter so far. But is it sustainable? also Is it low because industries that are gas dependent have closed shop?
i don’t really understand how LNG pricing works but if it’s more expensive too but it from the US, why is the spot price back to pre war levels? Can someone with more knowledge than me exploration how it works?
"Seems like a mild winter so far". It is not winter yet. This is still autumn. Winter in the Northern Hemisphere will start in December 21.
So too early to tell really. As for the gas price going down it is because every country in the EU finally stopped competing against each other on price while trying to get their gas storages full. Now they filled them up. But available gas storage is not expected to be enough to cover winter demand in the first place.

If you just do the math you will see there is no way US, or any LNG period, can replace European gas imports of piped Russian gas in the medium term. The only way Europe will even be able to continue heating homes will be by huge demand destruction in the heavy industry sector. And yes loads of factories already closed. Like factories which produce steel, brick and glass, etc.
 

siegecrossbow

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looks like EU gas prices are down, seems like a mild winter so far. But is it sustainable? also Is it low because industries that are gas dependent have closed shop?
i don’t really understand how LNG pricing works but if it’s more expensive too but it from the US, why is the spot price back to pre war levels? Can someone with more knowledge than me exploration how it works?

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Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
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"Seems like a mild winter so far". It is not winter yet. This is still autumn. Winter in the Northern Hemisphere will start in December 21.
So too early to tell really. As for the gas price going down it is because every country in the EU finally stopped competing against each other on price while trying to get their gas storages full. Now they filled them up. But available gas storage is not expected to be enough to cover winter demand in the first place.

If you just do the math you will see there is no way US, or any LNG period, can replace European gas imports of piped Russian gas in the medium term. The only way Europe will even be able to continue heating homes will be by huge demand destruction in the heavy industry sector. And yes loads of factories already closed. Like factories which produce steel, brick and glass, etc.
It is worth mentioning that during the winter, renewable energy generations such as solar and wind are turned off, there is no way to have energy generation from these modalities in winter conditions, which will require considerable alternatives to generate other energy sources. Europe spent the winter in previous years with reservoirs full or nearly full while Russian gas continued to flow from pipelines, this is not going to be a reality today.

As for the price drop, the price of natural gas has plummeted in Europe because there is no more place to store it. And they shut down fertilizer plants, the steel industry and several other production chains that demand a lot of energy. Basically consumption is low but storage tanks are small.

There is no magic, the reservoirs are almost full, the LNG terminals working day and night, they changed the routing of the gas pipelines, they contracted floating terminals, they accelerated the Baltic Pipe, they signed with Azerbaijan, they are now trying to look for gas from Africa. It was what was possible to do in terms of structure, but it is still not enough to replace Russian gas.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
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It is worth mentioning that during the winter, renewable energy generations such as solar and wind are turned off, there is no way to have energy generation from these modalities in winter conditions, which will require considerable alternatives to generate other energy sources. Europe spent the winter in previous years with reservoirs full or nearly full while Russian gas continued to flow from pipelines, this is not going to be a reality today.

As for the price drop, the price of natural gas has plummeted in Europe because there is no more place to store it. And they shut down fertilizer plants, the steel industry and several other production chains that demand a lot of energy. Basically consumption is low but storage tanks are small.

There is no magic, the reservoirs are almost full, the LNG terminals working day and night, they changed the routing of the gas pipelines, they contracted floating terminals, they accelerated the Baltic Pipe, they signed with Azerbaijan, they are now trying to look for gas from Africa. It was what was possible to do in terms of structure, but it is still not enough to replace Russian gas.
Incidentally, I still remember the fateful April 20, 2020, when the WTI price went into negative territory.
Ff2HwccXEAADrS_.jpg
The same happened with the price of gas in Europe. Lack of place to store the commodity makes buyers have to "pay" for those who have a place to store it. Remembering that this does not mean that the energy crisis has gone away. But because of higher than normal temperatures, demand is lower - which temporarily smoothed the balance of supply and demand. Winter will be difficult, as Europe's liquefaction capacity is not large enough to make up for falling supplies of piped gas from Russia.
 
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baykalov

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I quote only a small part of the whole analysis:
  • Demand reduction is forcing industry across Europe to idle, and will raise input costs to levels that make European industry uncompetitive. This may persist for several years, causing global supply chains to move away from Europe.
  • High energy prices will have long-term implications, in the form of higher debt burden, business failures and changes to the green transition.
Despite efforts to secure sufficient gas supplies for the coming winter, energy market dynamics for Europe in 2023 will be as challenging as in 2022: energy prices will remain elevated, reduced only by demand destruction across the continent, and it is difficult to see where economic growth will come from. Supply constraints mitigate against any significant lowering in price, and the primary strategies for demand destruction will have a negative long-term impact on EU competitiveness.

Supply: the scramble for gas may be worse in 2023

European governments are scrambling to fill their gas stores and are largely on track to reach their target of 95% by November 1st. However, this has largely been accomplished by importing Norwegian gas and liquefied natural gas (LNG) at close to the maximum throughput levels throughout the summer (in previous years there had generally been a summer lull), as well as small supply increases from Algeria and Azerbaijan. Additionally, the reduced supplies of Russian gas arriving between March and August still represented a significant portion of Europe’s imports in 2022. Europe’s maximum non-Russian import capacity has thus increased only slightly, and further new increases in import capacity are coming online haltingly. The installation of up to five floating storage and regasification units (specialised LNG import terminals) in Germany and one in Italy represents the biggest expected increase in supply this winter, but they will not begin to operate before January, and this installation schedule may slip. Additionally, the global LNG market will remain tight until at least 2024, providing little relief on price.

Storage capacity is typically drawn down by roughly 60 percentage points over the course of a normal European winter, with storage units remaining at least 20% full. However, this drawdown has historically occurred alongside continuing Russian gas imports over the course of the winter. Without such imports, even if gas storage were full and demand reduction successful, European gas stores would probably reach near-zero levels by early 2023. Therefore, to meet the 95% storage target in the autumn of 2023, Europe will have to acquire 20% more gas than usual, and unlike in 2022 it will have to do so without any Russian imports, exacerbating supply and price shocks.
 

siegecrossbow

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Anyone with an analysis of how bad this crisis will be for Europe?

Is it truly a deindustrialisation of Europe whereby they become fully dependent on the US? Or is it just a short-term shock that will pass?

Depends on how quickly the energy dependency issue is resolved. Anything longer than five years means that it is GG for Europe.
 

ficker22

Senior Member
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Anyone with an analysis of how bad this crisis will be for Europe?

Is it truly a deindustrialisation of Europe whereby they become fully dependent on the US? Or is it just a short-term shock that will pass?


European manufacturung was never competetive, all the goods weren't built by ethnic germans or ethnic french, they were built by romanians and polish, who were lured into germany, etc. With false promises, only to find them trapped in a factory with an unequal contract, see german meat industry.


German nationals are way to lazy and spoiled to do any dirty work. The high tech sector that we have now is castrated due to rising production costs, just look at car and wind turbine manufacturers, and all the talent will migrate to usa or asia.


And no, there is no near term solution to our energy problem, since our " partner" USA refuses to help.


China had its "COVID Year" in 2020 but they got back on track by Q3 2020 latest, we in europe can't lift our asses out of this mess so easily. It is one thing to stop an pandemic, it is a whole other thing to replace 30% of your energy demand.
 
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