East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Re: China Flanker Thread II

foxmulder_ms said:

Care to share one instance where China fly close to a Japan-USA exercise?

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Sure, recently China has been doing this all of the time in the new ADIZ that the PRC established.

They intercept and monitor US and Japnese military aircraft conducting routine missions in international air space.

If those aircraft are approaching China in any kind of threatening flight profile, this is undertsandable, but when they are conduting routine military patrols and exercises in international air space as they have done for years, the PLAAF now monitors them and sends aircraft to "check" on them.

In addition, duiring the most recent US - Japanese "AnnualEx 2013", where the US Navy and the JMSDF exercise well out into the East China Sea and Pacific, China itself announced that is had sent aircraft to patrol and monitor the event.

As I say, this is not unusual or abnormal behavior.

China has reached a point in the last several years, where it has the types of aircraft and refueling capability to conduct such missions further and further from its shores...and it is doing so, just like all of the other large maritime powers do.

Re: China Flanker Thread II

mr.bean said:

well they barely had a navy or an airforce until quite recently. but it looks like they are going to happily play that game from now on. they only established their ADIZ this year while the Japanese had theirs for what a few decades?? and the Japanese are such drama queens and calling the Chinese provocative.

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No reason to resort to name calling gentlemen, it lowers the quality of your otherwise fine arguments, everybody plays the game, no reason to give China a pass. As Jeff mentioned a US P-3 was rammed by a PLAFF fighter, resulting in the loss of the Chinese Pilot and his aircraft, and nearly the P-3 and its flight crew, resulting in an international incident, and the detention of the US aircrew. Had the P-3 aircrew not exhibited superior "airmanship" it would have been lost as well..... Yes the US aircraft was "snooping", and yes the Chinese aircraft was "intercepting". and while the AFB is getting real, there's very little doubt that the J-20 will also be filling the role of "interceptor", just as USAF F-22s are also "interceptors". For now the PLAAF will like use the J-11s and J-15s, if and when the J-20 enters operational status, it will fill that particular role as well.

Re: China Flanker Thread II

Air Force Brat said:

No reason to resort to name calling gentlemen, it lowers the quality of your otherwise fine arguments, everybody plays the game, no reason to give China a pass. As Jeff mentioned a US P-3 was rammed by a PLAFF fighter, resulting in the loss of the Chinese Pilot and his aircraft, and nearly the P-3 and its flight crew, resulting in an international incident, and the detention of the US aircrew. Had the P-3 aircrew not exhibited superior "airmanship" it would have been lost as well..... Yes the US aircraft was "snooping", and yes the Chinese aircraft was "intercepting". and while the AFB is getting real, there's very little doubt that the J-20 will also be filling the role of "interceptor", just as USAF F-22s are also "interceptors". For now the PLAAF will like use the J-11s and J-15s, if and when the J-20 enters operational status, it will fill that particular role as well.

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I was just making a point of how the Japanese like to use it as an excuse for anti china propaganda, like taking a cheap shot just in front of the media and making it look like the Chinese were doing something so out of the ordinary while the truth like you said everybody is doing the same thing. they have an ADIZ for decades and its larger than the one china just established but they with the united states were into a big round of china bashing. even the US state dept came out to issue anti china remarks. the Japanese with the US did make a big fuss over it did they not? the Chinese were basically telling them to hey calm down it's really not that big of a deal cause you 2 boys have been doing this for several decades.

Re: China Flanker Thread II

mr.bean said:

its just the Japanese govt making it into an anti china propaganda saying the Chinese were aggressive.

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Mr. Bean, I'd say the Chinese have exhibited "aggressive or maybe you would prefer provocative" behaviors, the ADIZ will only increase the close contact between all of our Navies and Air Forces, we will "all" be spending resources to parry these moves by the other team, and yes I'm certain and certainly not ashamed, that the the USN and USAF also exhibit these same provocative moves if we feel there is some compelling reason to do so, the most important being to see "who" the other team sends out to "do their talking". No its not "just the Japanese Govt", so lets try to keep the score card clean and fair, as I warned earlier when the ADIZ was established, there will be "proximity" to opposition forces, and its always possible that there will be contact.....

On the other hand this is "escalation", and the ADIZ could be argued to be either "defensive" or "offensive"????? just depends on what team you are playing on???? Just be careful out there folks, honesty and a good sense of humor could keep this "safe", obfuscating, dishonesty, and "whining and playing victim" will likely get somebody hurt???

Re: China Flanker Thread II

Air Force Brat said:

Mr. Bean, I'd say the Chinese have exhibited "aggressive or maybe you would prefer provocative" behaviors, the ADIZ will only increase the close contact between all of our Navies and Air Forces, we will "all" be spending resources to parry these moves by the other team, and yes I'm certain and certainly not ashamed, that the the USN and USAF also exhibit these same provocative moves if we feel there is some compelling reason to do so, the most important being to see "who" the other team sends out to "do their talking". No its not "just the Japanese Govt", so lets try to keep the score card clean and fair, as I warned earlier when the ADIZ was established, there will be "proximity" to opposition forces, and its always possible that there will be contact.....

On the other hand this is "escalation", and the ADIZ could be argued to be either "defensive" or "offensive"????? just depends on what team you are playing on???? Just be careful out there folks, honesty and a good sense of humor could keep this "safe", obfuscating, dishonesty, and "whining and playing victim" will likely get somebody hurt???

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again I just want to say the Chinese aren't doing what the Japanese nor americans have been doing for decades! if you call that aggressive but Japanese action NON aggressive then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Re: China Flanker Thread II

mr.bean said:

again I just want to say the Chinese aren't doing what the Japanese nor americans have been doing for decades! if you call that aggressive but Japanese action NON aggressive then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

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I didn't say the US or Japanese were NOT aggressive, you need to read my post, I said we all engage in it, and the Chinese even lost an airplane and nearly destroyed a US P-3, so what do you call that???? Mr Bean

Jr. High girls almost NEVER do anything wrong either, and its always the other guys or girls fault, with maturity comes the ability to recognize that our own actions may be "provocative" as well???? well hopefully ?

Re: China Flanker Thread II

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Re: China Flanker Thread II

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Re: China Flanker Thread II

foxmulder_ms said:

During AnnualEx 2013, China monitored its ADIZ, did not fly close to the actual exercise at all.

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Sure. But since those surface exercises were near the ADIZ, they clearly monitored the exercises. But you can believe whatever you want.

foxmulder_ms said:

Your other "example(s)" regarding ADIZ are not the same thing anyway.

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Yes...they are. Whether it is ships or aircraft, monitoring exercises potentially gives the same results, and that is information about communications, sensors and tactics.

foxmulder_ms said:

If China would have done something similar we would have been shown it in a very "dazzling" way

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Sorry...but you certainly sound like someone who is either very young, or someone who has never been very involved with any military exercises.

When you are pulling a PR stunt, or doing a "show" for civilians or VIPs, you dazzle.

When you are doing an intelligence gathering mission like these, you would prefer the adversary never see you at all if possible. You are not looking to dazzle or be noticed, you are simply looking to gather intelligence.

Re: China Flanker Thread II

I think we are all smart and mature enough to recognised the distinction between merely passively monitoring and exercise and getting so close in the name of 'monitoring' in order to actively disrupt what someone was planning on doing.