East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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xiabonan

Junior Member
Blackstone said:
Michael Swaine (Asia Studies, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace) has a new article on the ECS ADIZ, from China's perspective. Whether one agrees, disagrees, or a bit of both, it's a well written piece and a good read.

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The article has too many pages to copy-paste, but here are some of his concluding remarks:
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I have not read the entire article but based on what this brief summary suggests, here's some of my own opinions.

1、It is not just China's responsibility to "improve relationships" with neighbouring countries, particularly Japan. If we trace back to the origin of today's tension in the East Sea, Japan's arrest of Chinese Captain and the so-called "nationalisation" of the Diaoyu islands are the ultimate cause of it. The very fact that Japan does not even recognise there's any dispute shows clearly that they wouldn't make any compromise. In lieu of this, China has no choice but to firmly hold our stand and claim. The so-called "improving relatioship" called by many Western journalists and analysts were simply another way of saying "China should give up on her claims and appease Japan by unilaterally step back and compromise". So far I've not seen any Western media blame Japan for what they've done, or any media that can objectively analyse and present actions taken by both sides, as well as to present a coherent and clear historical background of the dispute.

2、The "ambiguity" were intentional. At least from what I feel. In fact this concept of "ambiguity" is deeply rooted in Chinese civilisation. The Chinese never do anything and everything strictly by the rule or laws, for that matter. Even today there's great ambiguity in China's legal and judiciary system (very seldom the laws themselves but more often than not ambiguity exists in great amount in enforcing the laws). In terms of external affairs, this is true as well. This I would say is one distinctive feature of the Chinese culture, as we seldom do or say anything to the absolute terms.

In the case of the ADIZ, this "ambiguity" leaves much room for both China and other parties involved. After all international relationships were not so clear-cut that "if you do this, I'll do that". It's all about leaving room for both ourselves as well as the other party so that both can tone down any possible incident (if there were any) without losing much face. For two countries so obsessed with "face", often clear-cut rules will leave very little space for any side's government to maneuver, giving the current situation and the higly nationalistic citizens within.
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
i.e. said:
OT

Those PLA movies are disgusting.


"Wind Rises" is actually a very good movie where its maker try to deliver a message that Japan CAN break and denounce its ugly and militarist past while same time honor the personal sacrifice and achievement of its people of that era .... WITH OUT resorting to resurrection of its ugly demons.
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The director of Wind Rises, Hayao Miyazaki is very critical of the Abe regime.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Okay guys, it is time for another reminder on this thread. We've had to have them in the past, and in fact the thread has been closed for periods of time in the past because of this same issue, and people have received warnings and suspensions. Please read and heed the following instructions:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTION >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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This thread is about the Chinese ADIZ in the Eat China Sea. Discussion about the technical aspects or specifics of the Air Defense Zone, Air Defence incidents, aircraft involved, radars/sensors employed, etc. are all fine.

But it is not about the Diaoyu/Senkakus Island dispute. Do not make it about that. If you do, you will receive a suspension and the thread may be closed.

It is also not about Japanese politicians or their politics, Japanese or PLAN movies, etc.

STAY ON TOPIC.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTION >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Thanks, that is all.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
This should be an interesting read here. China has informed Japan about the ADIZ since 2010 when it was in the planning stage.

The ‘China Threat’ Narrative Stumbles

The Mainichi Shinbun has opened the year with a blockbuster exclusive news story that is likely to be underplayed, or even ignored, by most of the rest of the Japanese media.

One of the biggest headlines in November 2013 was the public announcement by Beijing that it was establishing an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) over a large swathe of the East China Sea. This new ADIZ included the skies over the disputed Senkaku-Diaoyu Islands, and it overlapped with part of Japan’s existing ADIZ.

The Abe administration reacted sharply to the unveiling of the Chinese ADIZ, portraying it as a threat to freedom of navigation and to the rule of law. As the prime minister himself put it when addressing a summit of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, “Moves to unilaterally change the status quo, moves to put restrictions on the international aviation order, which is built on freedom of flight, are strong concerns.”

The alarmist reaction in Tokyo was largely echoed in Washington DC as well, as the Obama administration made declarations of support for their Japanese allies, sent a flight of B-52s over the disputed islands, and produced much anxious analysis about the expanding ambitions of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

A characteristic article was that authored by James Steinberg and Michael E. O’Hanlon and published by Reuters on December 16. These two authors contended that China’s ADIZ was fundamentally different from that of other countries (like Japan and the United States) because it was uniquely of a “unilateral and assertive nature.”

These influential American authors presented two “simple steps” that Beijing could have taken in order dispel international concerns over its ADIZ and to demonstrate “that its goal is benign”: first, they should have “consulted with others” in advance of the declaration; and, second, “China could have made clear how it intends to implement the zone.”

And this is precisely where the New Years revelations by the Mainichi Shinbun truly demolish the whole basis of the oft-repeated argument that China had done something uniquely aggressive when it declared its ADIZ in November.

The Mainichi Shinbun obtained secret documents of the Defense Ministry (fortunately for them, and the public, the new secrets law is not yet in force to suppress such inconvenient information), which reveal that senior PLA officers had told their Japanese counterparts in May 2010 that they had established the ADIZ in the East China Sea, and that they were moving toward making it public in the future. Moreover, they invited dialogue with the Japan Self-Defense Forces on how the two countries’ overlapping ADIZs might be managed in order to reduce the possibility of mishaps.

Moreover, the Japanese government was, according to the Mainichi Shinbun, well aware “in early 2013” that “final preparations” for the announcement of the Chinese ADIZ were underway.

We can safely surmise that if the Japanese government knew the declaration was forthcoming, that the US government, with its vast intelligence agencies, was also aware of it.

So the announcement of the Chinese ADIZ may have been a “surprise” to the general public, but it was certainly not a surprise to either the Japanese nor the US governments, which had in fact been tipped off by the PLA itself several years earlier.

What emerges, therefore, is not the sudden, aggressive, unilateral action by the Chinese government that has been so vividly portrayed by the world’s media for the last couple months, but rather a careful, longterm process that culminated in the November 2013 public declaration.

It is also worth noting that in June 2010 — one month after the Japanese were informed by China of their intention to establish a large, overlapping ADIZ in the East China Sea — the Japanese government announced (unilaterally) an expansion of its own ADIZ in the East China Sea by 22 kilometers in order to include Yonaguni Island.

In conclusion, the Mainichi Shinbun’s exclusive, which we have no doubt will be played down or entirely ignored by the Abe administration, should serve as a cautionary tale to independent observers not to accept too quickly and too blindly the “China threat” narrative being shopped around by those with vested interests in expanding the scope of the national security state.
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AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Obama has no credibility on the international area. I'm sure Japan and the Philippines are thinking about Obama's red line with Syria.

It's just like spying on allies. Obama is not going to get into hammering out any agreement with allies. Because then he would have to abide by it... If anyone has noticed, Obama's words speak louder than his actions. Obama is going to spend all his effort into trying to intimidate China into doing what he wants. He's not going to seek any agreement or law through proper channels because the US, Japan, and South Korea have ADIZs imposed without consulting anyone else. To seek legal redress will affect their zones they've already established. That's why Obama is resorting to intimidation tactics. We just heard Kerry say the US will defend Japan. Now they just said that with the Philippines. Those are already under treaty and agreements. There's nothing new here. If that's just to comfort their allies, then it's time to move the children to the kid's table.

Japan and the Philippines cries for help to the world shows how little confidence they have with Obama.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
​

Guys, this thread is about the EAST CHINA SEA ADIZ, not about developments in the South China Sea.

We have a separate thread for that:

South China Sea Strategies

I am moving all of the SCS posts to that thread.

STAY ON TOPIC


>>>>>>>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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A

A.Man

Major
A Rebuke to Japanese Nationalism

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A series of recent blunt statements from U.S. officials have left no doubt that Washington blames China's maritime expansionism for rising tensions in Asia. Now, America's main ally in the region needs to hear a similarly forthright message.

Japan had been clamoring for the U.S. to speak out more forcefully after China imposed an “air-defense identification zone” over a set of islands claimed by both countries. Officials in Tokyo have warned that any hint of daylight between Americans and Japanese only encourages further bullying from the mainland. For that same reason, U.S. officials have tempered their criticism of statements and actions by Japanese leaders that irk China, not to mention other victims of Japanese aggression during World War II.

This circumspection is becoming counterproductive. Since China imposed its air-defense identification zone in November, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has visited the deeply controversial Yasukuni shrine, which honors, along with millions of fallen soldiers from various conflicts, 14 Class A war criminals from World War II. What's more, several of Abe's nominees to the board of the state broadcaster NHK have made appallingly retrograde comments that Abe has declined to disavow. One claimed the horrific 1937 Nanjing Massacre never took place, while another pooh-poohed complaints that the Japanese military had exploited thousands of women from Korea and elsewhere as sex slaves during the war. Other Abe allies are busily trying to rewrite textbooks to downplay Japan's wartime brutality.

Japanese officials seem unconcerned with the impression all this creates abroad, arguing that relations with China and even with fellow U.S. ally South Korea can hardly get worse, and in any case are unlikely to improve so long as nationalists remain in power in those countries. A more conciliatory Japanese attitude, they are convinced, would only prompt endless humiliating demands from Beijing and Seoul.

Worse, Japan seems to be taking U.S. backing for granted. Abe went to Yasukuni even after Vice President Joe Biden quietly urged him not to. Details of their conversation were then strategically leaked, presumably to showcase Abe's defiant stance. In private, Japanese officials snipe about the Barack Obama administration’s alleged unreliability. Anything other than unstinting support for Japan is taken as a lack of backbone.

The U.S. should push back, and less gently than usual. President Obama's trip to Asia in April is an opportunity for the White House not only to reaffirm its disapproval of Chinese adventurism but also to make clear that Abe’s provocations are threatening stability in the region, and damaging the U.S.-Japan alliance.

This won’t change many minds inside Abe’s inner circle, of course. But most Japanese are acutely sensitive to any hint of U.S. displeasure. (Nearly 70 percent of respondents to one poll called on Abe to heed the negative reaction to his Yasukuni visit, which included a mild expression of “disappointment” from U.S. Ambassador Caroline Kennedy.) Voters threw out Abe once before when he let nationalist obsessions distract him from minding the economy. Sustained domestic pressure is needed to rein him in again.

Abe is not necessarily wrong to want to make Japan a more muscular nation -- to rejuvenate its economy, open up its society and normalize its self-defense forces. A more robust Japanese military could play a bigger role in promoting global and regional stability -- whether through anti-piracy patrols or peacekeeping missions -- and come to the defense of its allies. Inflaming Chinese and Korean sensitivities helps achieve none of those goals.

All it does is raise the likelihood of conflict in the region. That Abe's recent actions and comments may be less dangerous than China’s adventurism is beside the point. He’s eroding the international goodwill that Japan has built up over decades as a responsible democracy -- all for no good reason. If he can’t see that for himself, perhaps the U.S. -- and his own citizens -- can help him.

To contact the editor responsible for this article: David Shipley at [email protected].
 
R

Rutim

Banned Idiot
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A very interesting article which sheds a light on how some higher ups in China (not all - there are many factions in the Party as we all know) view Diaoyu/Senkaku problem and how they chose 'symbolism' over peace and won't budge even if that means another great war to show the world who's the boss.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Very interesting read ! ... not that I like or even more follow his opinion, but I'm sure that the events right now are indeed quite similar to the ones in Europe exactly 100 years ago with so devastating consequences for s many.

Especially we in the West - most of all the USA - should be carefull not to be misused by one side ...

Deino
 
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by78

by78

General
Rutim said:
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A very interesting article which sheds a light on how some higher ups in China (not all - there are many factions in the Party as we all know) view Diaoyu/Senkaku problem and how they chose 'symbolism' over peace and won't budge even if that means another great war to show the world who's the boss.
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My goodness, BusinessInsider? Is that a kindred spirit of WantChinaTimes?

Here's a more credible source (the Washpo):
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I'm still waiting for the U.S. to bomb the United Nations Headquarters.

Let's not give in to sensationalism and emotions.
 
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