East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Status
Not open for further replies.

FarkTypeSoldier

Junior Member
I am beginning my daily dosage of hot breakfast while reading Chinese & global military news thru all medium...

Here is a video of what is discussing over here:

[video=youtube;P2duYYj2pQ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2duYYj2pQ8[/video]

Today's (actually its yesterday's programme) guest is Rear Ad. (Ret) Yin Zhuo, he needs no introduction. He is invited to present his views on the East Sea ADIZ!

As usual, I will watch it and then translate the main points.
 

FarkTypeSoldier

Junior Member
I am beginning my daily dosage of hot breakfast while reading Chinese & global military news thru all medium...

Here is a video of what is discussing over here:

[video=youtube;P2duYYj2pQ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2duYYj2pQ8[/video]

Today's (actually its yesterday's programme) guest is Rear Ad. (Ret) Yin Zhuo, he needs no introduction. He is invited to present his views on the East Sea ADIZ!

As usual, I will watch it and then translate the main points.

The programme covers the topic of Japan's trying to expand its own ADIZ eastwards, "Have not the US & Japan forgotten they have ADIZs too" and the recent incursion by EP-3s, E-767 & F-15Js.

Rear Ad. (Ret) Yin take note of the following:

1) The recent incursions by US & Japanese planes were monitored by PLAAF's KJ-2000, Su-30 & J-11 fighters, only radar monitoring was used and the fighters were there to prevent any further intrusions as a precautionary measures;

2) Japan's latest stances is to demostrate their strong political standings & diplomatic response as a firm reply to China's own ADIZ;

3) Expanding Japan's ADIZ eastwards towards 2nd island chain (including Iwo Jima, Guam & Marianan Islands) with consent from US meaning both allies will cooperate battle operations in times of conflicts;

4) In the past, Japan was mainly defending its mainland, in 2005 and 2010 they had expanded the ADIZ and now up enimently to 2nd Island chain meaning Japan will fight alongside USA if there would be any kinds of conflicts;

5) He also explains the 5 pieces of ADIZs by US and their main objectives & importance of these various zones.

The programme ends by introducing the past incidents of Tu-95s and F-18s in these ADIZs.

Spoiler: There are audio deficiency in this episode.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

What are your arguments? Look at this - Chinese fishing boat ramming Japanese CG vessel near Senkaku - Japanese territorial waters! Move is justified. Japanese had probably full right to open fire on this occasion. Here's how Japanese vessel rammed unarmed and peaceful, defenseless poor Chinese fishermen... don't believe in everything what's written in Chinese press...
Your own arguments betrayed the lack of credential in your story. You claimed the fishing boat could have been fired upon by the Japanese Coast Guard vessel. So, common sense tells us that the fishing boat couldn't be ramming the coast guard vessel, precisely because the coast guard vessel was armed and no one would like to become Swiss Cheese.

The ship's wake in your own video shows the Japan Coast Guard vessel repeatedly cut across the path of the fishing boat. The fishing boat was in fact trying to get away, whereas the Japanese vessel kept on hitting the fishing boat. The subsequent stopping, boarding and impounding the fishing boat by Japanese agents in international water would fit the definition of piracy.

Where are your arguments now? I rest my case.

Who left Japan that it made it 'isolated' now?
That isn't going to make a bit of difference. The simple reality is that China can't be further isolated, thus smashing your fantasy of threatening China into submission via isolation. The creation of ADIZ is a reflection that China is not concerned with America's and Japan's isolation.

Affect in what way? They can't 'affect' those countries not breaking international laws...
Thus, by applying induction to your statement, we see that if China were to ignore international laws, China can affect those countries. Therefore, China can affect those countries. You have just proved my statement. In fact, affecting others contrary to international laws is the exact theme used by Western governments and medias in an attempt to paint China's ADIZ as invalid.

lol, nice talk about 'medicines'. What's the victory in a fact that it changed nothing????
China is now able to feed US and Japan their own medicines now. That's quite a change and a victory.
 
Last edited:

Brumby

Major
If the whole post wwII (should really be WWI, but sadly that attempt failed and millions of lives later they had to try again) experiment is all about setting up a rule based international system, really an American sort of progressive Idealism driven, born out of NorthEastern Ivy league Princeton/John Hopkins/Cornell sort of system,
then, Americans should really stick with it. even it is against their short term interest.

They thing I really don't like about the current administration's foreign policy is that it really favors expedient, naked and narrow national self interest over long term interest of whole rule based international system.

How is this connected to the subject matter of this thread?
 

i.e.

Senior Member
How is this connected to the subject matter of this thread?

Americans could put this on the road towards peaceful solutions if they they would gone to the high road of
1) respecting old treaties
2) call for a conference, hosted by Americans, where Japan and China discuss specially the over lapping adiz issue.

instead ... well. we have joe biden.

Deleted - unrealted to topic, drugding up old, provocative issues.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

joshuatree

Captain
Couldn't post this when it was new since this thread was locked. But I think other ADIZs in the area should be scrutinized as well. From these two posts, it seems the Japanese are doing the very things that they are being alarmist about in regards to China's ADIZ.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Taipei, Dec. 3 (CNA) Taiwan will express its deep concerns to Japan if Japanese authorities interfere with Taiwanese civilian aircraft flying through an area where the two countries' airspace zones overlap, an official said Tuesday.

"If our Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA) notifies us of such a case, we will immediately hold serious consultations with Japan" and ask it to refrain from such actions, said Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Anna Kao at a news conference Tuesday.

Kao's remarks came a day after CAA Director-General Shen Chi revealed that civilian aircraft from Taiwan have been harassed by Japan's Air Self-Defense Force in an area where the two countries' airspace zones overlap.

Shen said the CAA notified the Foreign Ministry of the incidents.

But asked on Tuesday how many such cases were reported to the ministry, Kao said she did not have the information at hand, but stressed there have been no such cases so far this year.

In 2009, 15 Taiwanese flights flying on an air route designated B591, which stretches from Taipei to northeastern China through the overlapping zones, seemed to have been intercepted by Japanese defense craft, Shen said later Monday, citing CAA information.

Between September 2010 and April 2011, 17 Taiwanese civilian aircraft faced interference from Japanese Self-Defense Force radio waves, she said, and similar incidents happened between April 2012 and the following month.

The incidents occurred where Japan's air defense identification zone (ADIZ) and Taiwan's flight information region overlap, between 123 degrees and 124 degrees longitude.

The issue arose when Shen first revealed the Japanese maneuvers at a hearing held by the Legislature's Foreign Affairs and National Defense Committee on Monday on China's recent demarcation of its own ADIZ in the East China Sea.




Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) expanded the Taipei Flight Information Region one degree east in 1955 to improve air traffic control operations, but the move also created problems for Taiwan’s aviation authorities, a Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA) official said.

Feng Ying-pin (馮英彬) said on Monday that when the ICAO demarcated Taiwan’s flight information region in 1953, the eastern border was set at 123o east.

Since airplanes at the time were slower, Taiwanese planes flying to Japan were usually unable to reach a level altitude before they left the region, forcing them to hand air control operations over to Japanese authorities.

Feng said that in consideration of the difficulty this gave air traffic control operators, the ICAO moved the eastern part of the flight information region one degree to 124o east in 1955 — which put it inside Japan’s air defense identification zone.

A country’s flight information region and its air defense identification zone are usually identical, he said, but the ICAO’s changes created an unusual situation for Taiwan and Japan.

The overlap has caused trouble for the CAA, he said, as the Japan Self-Defense Forces heighten their alert whenever a Taiwanese aircraft passes through the overlapping areas.

In 2002, for example, Japanese defense aircraft interfered with the radio transmissions of a Taiwanese plane testing a new air route through the area.

The CAA used diplomatic channels to ask Japan not to interfere with civil aircraft that had made applications to pass through the overlapping zone.

The opening of direct flights between Taiwan and China several years later made matters more complicated, as the flight path designated B591 travels through the area.

Taiwan has complied with Japanese instructions to give flight plans for all civilian aircraft flying through the zone since 2009.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Couldn't post this when it was new since this thread was locked. But I think other ADIZs in the area should be scrutinized as well. From these two posts, it seems the Japanese are doing the very things that they are being alarmist about in regards to China's ADIZ.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!







Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


hehe...

btw Taiwan's ADIZ officially cover a huge swath of south and central china.
SKADIZ covers the Pyongyang, DPRK's capital. go figure...

Like I said before, ICAO will take Japan's protest on ADIZ with a smile and then give them the finger.

stuff like this happens alot in ADIZs.
Abe is just making a political statement.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
I just have to say something about the
"china changing the status quo" part that gets uttered all the time.

Original text removed, Sorry, this is a family orientated forum - Sampanviking

There is a value for peace and tranquility, of course!

But there is also a value for justice and equality.

with out the later you will not get former.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I think its pretty clear now that behind the hype that it is business as usual and nobody is about to start shooting at anybody.

Joe Biden has been in town, and while he made some play of being "direct" about the ADIZ, his spokesman spent most of the time, briefing off the record, about how it was actually DPRK that he really wanted to talk to President Xi about.

Likewise British Premier "Call me Dave" Cameron has also been in China all week, leading a 100 strong trade delegation and desperate to put to bed the snub he received for meeting a certain Gentlemen. Mr Cameron has only been interested in talking business and signing deals. The ADIZ was not mentioned once. In fact I do not think it has ever been mentioned in a UK main TV news bulletin broadcast (certainly not one I watched).
Clearly, if the vicinity of the fan was an unwise position to choose for seating, Mr Cameron would have cancelled his visit.

It is after all just an ADIZ and after the equivalent of a few elbows and grumbles to get to the front of the bar, it is going quiet and Japan is starting to look rather alone in its stated position.
 

Scyth

Junior Member
Japan wants to talk "since there are issues". He can't expect China to dismantle/ decrease the size of its ADIZ. Nor would I expect him to agree with China that Diaoyu islands belong to China, or at least the ownership is in dispute. Interesting to see how this will unfold.

Bloomberg said:
Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe called for a summit with Chinese President Xi Jinping to reset relations after an escalation in bilateral tensions, invoking a 2006 visit to Beijing during his first administration.

“Since there are issues, it is all the more important to have a leaders’ meeting,” Abe said in an interview in the prime minister’s official residence in Tokyo. “I visited China as prime minister and met with Hu Jintao and we shared the view that we should develop our ties based on a strategic, mutually beneficial relationship. Now is the time to go back to that starting point.”

Today’s call by Abe is his most explicit yet for a summit since China’s declaration last month of an air-defense zone that overlaps with Japan’s over the East China Sea. U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, on a trip to Japan, China and South Korea this week, urged the two nations to establish crisis-management communication.

Abe, 59, highlighted the value of ties between Asia’s two largest economies, with China benefiting from job gains stemming from Japanese investment, and Japanese companies profiting from earnings on their Chinese business. A surge in tensions last year triggered demonstrations in China that cost Japanese automakers billions of dollars in lost revenue, underscoring the importance of avoiding an incident prompted by the air-zone rift.
Nissan’s Business

Last year’s unrest set Nissan Motor (7201) Co. as much as two years behind on its midterm China targets, Chief Financial Officer Joseph Peter said in an interview yesterday at the company’s headquarters in Yokohama.

Japan’s total exports to China, its top trading partner at the time, slumped 11 percent last year.

Nissan’s sales in China will grow at a rate outpacing the overall industry next year, as there hasn’t been any anti-Japanese backlash among consumers.

“Next year, we should see our sales increasing, probably a little bit more than the industry,” Peter said.

Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) said Dec. 2 that its China sales rose 41 percent to 89,800 vehicles in November, lifting the 11-month total to 809,000.

“The relationship between Japan and China is one that can never be severed,” said Abe, who took office for the second time as prime minister in December 2012. “We both need each other. Even if we have a problem, we should not allow it to control the whole relationship. That kind of thinking will lead to a strategic, mutually beneficial relationship.”
Repaired Ties

Abe has yet to hold a summit with either Xi or South Korean President Park Geun Hye, amid continuing territorial disputes with both neighbors. The impasse is a contrast from Abe’s 2006-2007 term in office, when he repaired ties with China that had frayed under predecessor Junichiro Koizumi -- whose visits to a national war shrine stirred Chinese resentment.

China’s Foreign Ministry said in November 2006 that bilateral ties were “back on track” since Abe had become prime minister. Abe in an April 2007 meeting with then-Premier Wen Jiabao secured an agreement to restart exchanges of defense officials.

Asked whether China is open to a summit with Japan now, Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei told reporters in Beijing today that “the problem is Japan cannot look straight at history and reality and do the right thing on certain issues. So we once again ask Japan to look at history and reality and pursue the same direction as China.”
Wartime Association

Some Japanese cabinet members continue to visit the shrine that Koizumi visited -- Yasukuni, which honors the country’s war dead including World War II leaders convicted as Class A war criminals.

“Japan should respect China’s decision on the air identification zone and do something real and substantial to improve relations,” Hong said today.

The air defense identification zone, or ADIZ, declared by Xi’s government last month challenged Japan’s administration of East China Sea islands called Senkaku in Japanese and Diaoyu in Chinese. Since 2010, China has increased marine surveillance and sent Chinese aircraft into the disputed space above the islands, leading Japan to deploy jets and step up its own patrols.

Abe increased his nation’s defense budget in 2013 for the first time in 11 years and the Defense Ministry wants another budget increase for next year, a move that would return military spending to its highest level since 2005.
Biden Trip

The air zone news prompted warnings from Japan’s ally the U.S., including ones voiced by Biden on his trip this week. China’s influence in a region that increasingly drives the global economy means it must take a bigger role in maintaining stability, Biden said in a speech yesterday to business leaders in China.

“China will bear increasing responsibility to contribute positively to peace and security,” Biden said. “That means taking steps to reduce the risks of accidental conflict and miscalculation.”

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top