CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
The US is budgeting to stay the same, while China is budgeting for explosive growth, and that's the difference. Think about where the PLAN was 30 years ago vis-a-vis the USN, and think about now, then project 30 more years into the future, and we're still 13 years away from 2060. China doesn't need 100 advanced destroyers? Says whom? It needs that many if the goal is to be stronger than the USN, and if you don't think that's China's goal then you're seriously underestimating China's ambition.

Frankly, statements like "they simply do not need them" is rather condescending. It implies that China should not aspire to a level of power that an existing nation already has, while the Chinese people are aspiring to a level of power that no nation has ever had. China is one of the greatest trading nation in the world throughout history, in current day, and likely will be in the future as well. It has as much if not more reason to have a strong navy as any power that's ever been, and in the future it'll aspire to be able to protect SLOC from the ECS to the Mediterranean, from the SCS to the Gulf of Mexico.

By no means am I saying that China will definitely accomplish all that, but whether it'll be able to will only be limited by capability and not by a lack of ambition and resolve.
The US is "budgeting" by printing money that does not exist, making each and every printed dollar that much more worthless. Soon and very soon, the house of cards is going to fall down to the ruin of us all. It is not hard (for most) to see this coming, it is only a matter of do you have the balls to stop the madness before it's too late. Given our government's track record (on either side of aisle), the answer is no, the answer is they are cowards and crooks who can't stop spending, and we are still headed straight for a financial cliff that we can see with both eyes wide open. When we finally crash our financial system, it won't matter if the US still has 11 carriers, there will be not be enough dollars that could be printed to pay for their upkeep. Just ask your average Venezuelan how many bolivars you need right now to buy a loaf of bread.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
The US is "budgeting" by printing money that does not exist, making each and every printed dollar that much more worthless. Soon and very soon, the house of cards is going to fall down to the ruin of us all. It is not hard (for most) to see this coming, it is only a matter of do you have the balls to stop the madness before it's too late. Given our government's track record (on either side of aisle), the answer is no, the answer is they are cowards and crooks who can't stop spending, and we are still headed straight for a financial cliff that we can see with both eyes wide open. When we finally crash our financial system, it won't matter if the US still has 11 carriers, there will be not be enough dollars that could be printed to pay for their upkeep. Just ask your average Venezuelan how many bolivars you need right now to buy a loaf of bread.

Unless our dear leader Trump can stop that fall from happening.;)
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
Speaking of costs, what's the estimated cost of a fully equipped Ford class with its air wing, and the estimated yearly upkeep and training cost? I imagine operation, maintenance, and training costs of a carrier is proportionally higher than that of a destroyer, but how much would that proportion be? With that information, we can make some estimates on the financial burden on the PLAN in order to support a 6+ carrier fleet and have some idea about its feasibility.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
The US is "budgeting" by printing money that does not exist, making each and every printed dollar that much more worthless. Soon and very soon, the house of cards is going to fall down to the ruin of us all. It is not hard (for most) to see this coming, it is only a matter of do you have the balls to stop the madness before it's too late. Given our government's track record (on either side of aisle), the answer is no, the answer is they are cowards and crooks who can't stop spending, and we are still headed straight for a financial cliff that we can see with both eyes wide open. When we finally crash our financial system, it won't matter if the US still has 11 carriers, there will be not be enough dollars that could be printed to pay for their upkeep. Just ask your average Venezuelan how many bolivars you need right now to buy a loaf of bread.
Off topic, but if the government was "printing money that doesn't exist", core inflation wouldn't be below target.
 

delft

Brigadier
Off topic, but if the government was "printing money that doesn't exist", core inflation wouldn't be below target.
Many of these dollars leak to other countries to buy what US need to live and the remainder fell into the hands of banks and other large companies. That's why inflation is low. US used to destroy oil exporting countries that talked about selling oil for other currency than dollars ( Iraq, Libya ) but then in order to punish Iran it forced India to buy oil for physical gold and Iran liked it so much that now it only accepts gold, roubles and RMB. Another reason for low inflation in US is the artificially low interest rates and when these return to normal the budget deficit will crash through the roof. It already is unable to maintain its infrastructure ( I saw an article recently that the NY subway system is using 1930's technology, in WaPo? )
We see that China has two yards developed to build aircraft carriers and both can build at least three carriers per ten years, perhaps 80k fleet carriers in the one place and 50k sea control ships at the other. Looking at the production rate of 055's it is also able to build the escorts. It has just build a plant to produce nuclear subs at a good rate. If US were to go for a naval arms race it will loose because of the dollars.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Many of these dollars leak to other countries to buy what US need to live and the remainder fell into the hands of banks and other large companies. That's why inflation is low. US used to destroy oil exporting countries that talked about selling oil for other currency than dollars ( Iraq, Libya ) but then in order to punish Iran it forced India to buy oil for physical gold and Iran liked it so much that now it only accepts gold, roubles and RMB. Another reason for low inflation in US is the artificially low interest rates and when these return to normal the budget deficit will crash through the roof. It already is unable to maintain its infrastructure ( I saw an article recently that the NY subway system is using 1930's technology, in WaPo? )
Reported inflation isn't nominal, but real. Lower interest rates actually lead to higher real inflation (in theory, this holds out in practice under normal circumstances but things get wonky at the zero lower bound).

If inflation is low because demand for US dollars globally is high, then the US isn't "printing money that doesn't exist". The money it's printing is capturing the value of using US dollars for global transactions. Anyways, that's the last I'll say on this little diversion. Sorry for the off topic.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Reported inflation isn't nominal, but real. Lower interest rates actually lead to higher real inflation (in theory, this holds out in practice under normal circumstances but things get wonky at the zero lower bound).

If inflation is low because demand for US dollars globally is high, then the US isn't "printing money that doesn't exist". The money it's printing is capturing the value of using US dollars for global transactions. Anyways, that's the last I'll say on this little diversion. Sorry for the off topic.
Technically the US isn't printing any money at all right now, as QE1-3 have all concluded. That term is my stand-in for the debt-driven US economy that grows unsustainably larger each passing day. On the other hand, QE4 is right around the corner whenever the next recession hits if it hasn't started already. I predict that this next one will be even worse than the last one and may actually be the snowflake that finally triggers the avalanche. Also, officially reported inflation is a well-known voodoo statistic that probably doesn't reflect inflation as it affects the common citizen. There are too many incentives for the government to underreport inflation in order to keep its costs low, as payouts from SS and VA benefits and the like are all adjusted upwards yearly to account for "inflation".
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Technically the US isn't printing any money at all right now, as QE1-3 have all concluded. That term is my stand-in for the debt-driven US economy that grows unsustainably larger each passing day. On the other hand, QE4 is right around the corner whenever the next recession hits if it hasn't started already. I predict that this next one will be even worse than the last one and may actually be the snowflake that finally triggers the avalanche. Also, officially reported inflation is a well-known voodoo statistic that probably doesn't reflect inflation as it affects the common citizen. There are too many incentives for the government to underreport inflation in order to keep its costs low, as payouts from SS and VA benefits and the like are all adjusted upwards yearly to account for "inflation".
We can take this discussion out of this thread if you're interested in continuing it.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The US has over 100 AEGIS class vessels...and is building more.

Nitpick, USN from what I understand has 22 active Ticos and 62 active Burkes, making 84 Aegis ships.

And given the USN's plans for Flight III Burkes as replacements for Ticos as they near retirement age the overall number of Aegis ships may start to approach 100 and might even briefly peak above it, but that also will depend how quickly Ticos are retired in the 2020s.


Either way, the USN doesn't have quite that many aegis ships, definitely not over 100.
 
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