CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

timepass

Brigadier
the difference between the two is, one is all talk and no action while the other keep it's mouth shut and just work on it.

Exactly my friend....actually since > last decade Indian's used Media (Print/Electronic/Social/Forums plus lobbying) very efficiently & effectively.

They literally create the hysteria around the globe that everyone believes them. While if see the ground realities in India you will see 360 degree opposite.

Its all perception....
 

Blitzo

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The article you've posted points out that the IN has already decided on the vessel's components & specifications. The 2030 date seems to be based off the worst-case scenario, i.e. in which India would have to develop a shipborne nuclear reactor from scratch and that the project would be susceptible to delays stemming from the Vikrant program. As the Diplomat has pointed out, the Vishal could potentially use one of three options for its propulsion: (1) develop a reactor with the United States (most likely Westinghouse), (2) scale up the reactors used by the Arihant, and (3) navalize one of its commercial reactors.

Additionally, we do not know which shipyard the Vishal would be built at (either Cochin or Mazagon), so it might not actually be affected by the Vikrant program.

Umm, no. The Indian Navy has decided they want EMALS on the carrier, they've decided they want it to displace 65,000 tons full and have about 55 aircraft.
But apart from that they have yet to finalize a design, and you yourself have even said that they have yet to even settle on a nuclear propulsion system (which is probably the most vital part of a CVN to begin with).
Put all that together, along with the atrocious programme management causing delays, which seems to compound all recent, indigenous big ticket projects of the Indian Navy (P15A, INS Vikrant, P17) between launch to commissioning, and I think an early 2030s in service date is actually pretty reasonable if not optimistic.

At the very least you can surely admit that a 2025 service date is impossible, as such a service date means it would need 1-2 years of sea trials prior to 2025, not to mention at least 1-2 years of fitting out prior to sea trials, and a ship of that size and complexity would need at least 3-4 years of construction prior to launch.
That means if INS Vishal really wants to be in service by 2025 it would have to begin construction of the first modules either this year or next at the very latest -- and that is assuming the Indian shipbuilding industry is able to do the job in the timely fashion listed above which is what you'd expect for a US shipyard, UK shipyard or a Chinese shipyard, but which given the track record of Indian shipyards I wouldn't be surprised if construction from module fabrication to launch takes double that time and fitting out even longer.

Or let's put it this way -- from where we stand now, the INS Vishal as about as good a chance of entering service in 2025 as the INS Vikrant does of entering service in 2018.

If it turns out that the Indian shipbuilding industry somehow gets its act together just as they start constructing INS Vishal, or if they receive massive, useful assistance from the US industry, then sure, that may change things, but those are the equivalent of unforeseen acts of god from where we are right now.


Back on topic: the Chinese should find ways to maintain their current lead in light of naval expansion programs by both the Indian and Royal navies.

China's naval priorities are dependent on what its strategic interests, are, not to seek whatever degree of "lead" over other navies for the sake of it.

I'm also not sure what you're particularly concerned about -- consider the Chinese Navy in 2025 and think about how many 055s, 052Ds, 054Bs and 054As they have in service by then, and look at the construction and commissioning plans for other navies around the world and their destroyers, frigates and carriers, then re-examine the issue a little.
 

Blitzo

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Not necessarily at all.

The INdian Navy has the Virkamaditya operational...the chinese have the Liaoning operationl.

The Indian Navy launched their 1st indegenous carrier, the Vikrant. The Chinese are about to launch their first indegenous carrier, CV-17.


Jeff, I gotta call you out on this bit, because you're contradicting yourself.



So both are actually doing things, and in similar time fames to date.

Similar time frames would suggest both started at about the same time and both will get a certain stage at about the same time -- for example between keel laying and between launch or between keel laying and between commissioning.


Now I think the Vikrant will probably end up going to sea abut the same time as the CV-17, even though it launched far earlier. And I think it is likely that the Chinese CV-17 will commission first...but not too far ahead of the Vikrant.

INS Vikrant launched earlier as you say, meaning how can the time frames be similar? More importantly, INS Vikrant's keel was laid earlier as well, in February 2009, whereas 001A's keel was only laid down in March 2015. INS Vikrant was only truly launched (with complete hull, island, ski jump) in June 2015 (over six years between keel laying and launch), whereas 001A will likely be launched sometime later this month or next month in April or May 2017 (slightly over two years between keel laying and launch).

Even assuming INS Vikrant and 001A both go to sea by 2018-2019 and both enter service between 2020-2021 (which by all accounts is optimistic for the INS Vikrant), that is still a six year difference between the laying of the keel of 001A compared to INS Vikrant, where INS Vikrant would go from a 2009 keel laying to a 2020 (optimistic) commissioning date of 11 years, whereas 001A would go from a 2015 keel laying to a 2020 commissioning date of 5 years.

It's almost double (or half, depending on how you look at it) the length of time, and most definitely not the same "time frame" at all.
So yes, both shipyards and nations may be technically "doing" but one is doing at about half the speed of the other.
 
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mr.bean

Junior Member
Not necessarily at all.

The INdian Navy has the Virkamaditya operational...the chinese have the Liaoning operationl.

The Indian Navy launched their 1st indegenous carrier, the Vikrant. The Chinese are about to launch their first indegenous carrier, CV-17.

So both are actually doing things, and in similar time fames to date.

Now I think the Vikrant will probably end up going to sea abut the same time as the CV-17, even though it launched far earlier. And I think it is likely that the Chinese CV-17 will commission first...but not too far ahead of the Vikrant.

On the 3rd carrier I thin we shall see the Chinese take the lead in building, launching, and commissioning it before th INdian 3rd carrier.

So, while it is true that the Chinese yards, once they are geared up, produce these large vessels faster than the Indians, it is not at all true that the INdians are "all talk" and the Chiense just go and do things.

As I say, right now the INdians have tow carriers in the water. One is commissioned and operational.

The Chinese will not have their second carrier in the water until probably next week or so.

So they are both "doing."

sure. no need to argue cause talk is cheap, it's action that counts. we will all witness how China & India are ''DOING'' things.
 

Lethe

Captain
It is not necessary to denigrate India's performance to note that China has a far better track record in terms of delivering projects on time and as intended.

In its own way, the ongoing development of the Indian Navy is very impressive. Nonetheless, India and China are clearly operating in different leagues, and the present illusion of parity borne of the parallels between Vikramaditya/Liaoning and Shandong/Vikrant and their respective timelines will be revealed as just that: an illusion.
 

Blitzo

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It is not necessary to denigrate India's performance to note that China has a far better track record in terms of delivering projects on time and as intended.

I agree -- although the numbers speak for themselves, and putting those numbers out there in stark form does probably convey a degree of inherent difference that some people may perceive as denigration.


In its own way, the ongoing development of the Indian Navy is very impressive. Nonetheless, India and China are clearly operating in different leagues, and the present illusion of parity borne of the parallels between Vikramaditya/Liaoning and Shandong/Vikrant and their respective timelines will be revealed as just that: an illusion.

To be honest I think the Indian shipbuilding industry should be praised for making a valiant attempt to build and deliver projects like INS Vikrant on time and even building it in the first place.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
IN by 2025:
- 1 x Vishaal class CVN (nuclear-powered, EMALS) - 55 aircraft complement
- 1 x Vikrant class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 30 aircraft complement
- 1 x Vikramaditya class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 36 aircraft complement
- Air wing of Tejas, MiG-29Ks, & possibly Rafales
- Helicopter complement of Ka-28, Ka-31, Sea King, & Dhruv

PLAN by 2025:
- 1 x Type 002 class CV (conventional, CATOBAR) - 80 aircraft complement
- 1 x Type 001A class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 36 aircraft complement
- 1 x Type 001 class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 36 aircraft complement
- Air wing of J-15, J-15A, & possibly FC-31 (or J-20)
- Helicopter complement of Ka-28, Ka-31, Z-9, Z-18, Z-20

The IN would have a small but noticeable lead in the next decade in terms of naval air projection. It is advisable for the Chinese to invest in newer aircraft to offset the gap or to curb their behavior in the IOR.


I would be surprised if Vikrant would be commissioned by 2025 ... more likely 2032 ... so let alone CVN LOL ;)
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
IN by 2025:
- 1 x Vishaal class CVN (nuclear-powered, EMALS) - 55 aircraft complement
- 1 x Vikrant class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 30 aircraft complement
- 1 x Vikramaditya class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 36 aircraft complement
- Air wing of Tejas, MiG-29Ks, & possibly Rafales
- Helicopter complement of Ka-28, Ka-31, Sea King, & Dhruv

PLAN by 2025:
- 1 x Type 002 class CV (conventional, CATOBAR) - 80 aircraft complement
- 1 x Type 001A class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 36 aircraft complement
- 1 x Type 001 class CV (conventional, STOBAR) - 36 aircraft complement
- Air wing of J-15, J-15A, & possibly FC-31 (or J-20)
- Helicopter complement of Ka-28, Ka-31, Z-9, Z-18, Z-20

The IN would have a small but noticeable lead in the next decade in terms of naval air projection. It is advisable for the Chinese to invest in newer aircraft to offset the gap or to curb their behavior in the IOR.

is it an alternative fact! ? :p
 

Blitzo

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is it an alternative fact! ? :p

Let's avoid one sentence posts with little substance.

You can disagree with his content, but try to provide a reasoned argument instead of short quips that doesn't contribute anything to the conversation.
 
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