CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[nugroho]

My point is simple. Even though India launched Vikrant earlier...they will go to sea for trials in the same time frame.

That is all I was saying and I believe it is going to be fairly accurate.

But, beyond that, I expect China to now launch and commison the 3rd carrier ahead of the Indians.

This does not mean India is "bad". They simply do not have the infrastructure or means to launch and deliver large ships in the type of time frame the Chinese do.

But they are getting there...and they will, in the 2020s deliver their 3rd carrier too.

Again...India and China are both "doing." The one pst I was responded to inferred that INdia just talks and doesn't "do" things. This is not the case. They have been launching quite a lot of vessels (for India) over the last few years, and ultimately will have, in a reasnable time frame, a three carrier Navy.

But not as quickly as China...and they cannot keep up with China's overall production rate...they simply do not have the experience, or the infrastructure to do so.

and also they don't have the most important thing: money
to make a decent strong navy , money is needed in very huge amount

 

[Richard Santos]

India's problems with timely fulfillment of grand military ambitions probably has less to do with lack of money, or even lack of industrial capacity and technical skill given her access to western technology, but more to do with poor project management, bad organization, a tendency towards trying to do the visible before the substantive, and insufficient reflection on own shortcomings.

 

[timepass]

India's problems with timely fulfillment of grand military ambitions probably has less to do with lack of money, or even lack of industrial capacity and technical skill given her access to western technology, but more to do with poor project management, bad organization, a tendency towards trying to do the visible before the substantive, and insufficient reflection on own shortcomings.

Below is my previous reply on the very same thread ..... Mother of all above comments..... about India's Fulfillment of Grand claims ....

Exactly my friend....actually since > last decade Indian's used Media (Print/Electronic/Social/Forums plus lobbying) very efficiently & effectively.

They literally create the hysteria around the globe that everyone believes them. While if see the ground realities in India you will see 360 degree opposite.

Its all perception....

 

[PiSigma]

India's problems with timely fulfillment of grand military ambitions probably has less to do with lack of money, or even lack of industrial capacity and technical skill given her access to western technology, but more to do with poor project management, bad organization, a tendency towards trying to do the visible before the substantive, and insufficient reflection on own shortcomings.

Funny you say they got bad project management. The oil and gas industry here have a lot of Indian project managers. Some are really good and some ate terrible. Most of them have a technical background starting as engineers, of which most are very competent. So I don't know why project managers suddenly became poor back in India. I think its the beaucracy, because the individual skill are still very good.

Or possibility because the best engineers and managers are immigrated to Canada and US, so only bad ones ate left there.

 

[Richard Santos]

L

Funny you say they got bad project management. The oil and gas industry here have a lot of Indian project managers. Some are really good and some ate terrible. Most of them have a technical background starting as engineers, of which most are very competent. So I don't know why project managers suddenly became poor back in India. I think its the beaucracy, because the individual skill are still very good.

Or possibility because the best engineers and managers are immigrated to Canada and US, so only bad ones ate left there.

It's not that Indians can't be good project managers. It seems to be that the political and organization culture of India readily defeat the most strenuous effort of good project managers.

 

[fatfreddy]

Funny you say they got bad project management. The oil and gas industry here have a lot of Indian project managers. Some are really good and some ate terrible. Most of them have a technical background starting as engineers, of which most are very competent. So I don't know why project managers suddenly became poor back in India. I think its the beaucracy, because the individual skill are still very good.

Or possibility because the best engineers and managers are immigrated to Canada and US, so only bad ones ate left there.

On risk of not relevant to thread, its not fair to say no good ones left. This applies to all Asian countries with constant migration to the developed countries. Good people have other motivations to stay behind. Family commitments, cultural, patriotism etc. However I do agree that local politics and probably more relevant are lack of governance and aged methodologies. The developed countries have better methods which achieved higher levels of management and quality. Trying to instil those methods in the local environment comes up against local egos, entrenched attitudes and lack of emphasis on productivity and efficiency.

 

[Skywatcher]

A big problem with projects like the LCA and the Arjun was that the customer kept on rewriting the specs (it didn't help that from anecdotal evidence, it was virtually impossible to make personnel changes or remove the higher ups), without any regard for building institutional experience.

You'd have to essentially have to rearrange the chairs (probably have to fire a lot of the senior people) in the state owned industries, and maybe the uniformed buyers too) though the private industry might do better.

 

[Jeff Head]

Okay, if it is only talking about when they will be going on sea trials then that would likely be an accurate statement, however omitting when the work on both ships actually began is a bit dodgy imo, especially if one wants to use their sea trial "time frame" as an example of how both are "doing" things to a supposedly similar degree as your last post seemed to imply.




Comparatively speaking, I think the Chinese military "talks" a lot less and "does" a lot more or at least much faster and more efficiently, while the Indian military "talks" a lot more and "does" a lot less or at least much slower and less efficiently.

As you say, this isn't necessarily an indictment of "good" or "bad". But remember that we are coming from the PLA watching background where the PLA keeps details of its many big ticket under development projects under careful wrap often until even after they're in service -- compared with the Indian military who are very open and almost promotional about their under development big ticket projects, and then looking at the difference in how each side delivers on their promises... well I think the inference isn't an unfair one.

Bltizo, I am not "dodging" anything, and challenge you to show that I have...that simply is not a good use of terms IMHO.

Well, it does not matter...I said what I said and Is tand by it. I think you took it wrong personally.

I have been following what the US, the French, the INdians, the Chinese, the Japnese, etc. have been doing for decades.

I simply made a statement that the Indians are "doing" something. They are not all talk.

That was not a dodge in any way shape or form. it is a statement of fact.

The Chinese have also very impressively been "doing."

My intent was not to try and say who is best...simply that both nations are "doing."

Clearly, the Chinese have amassed a shipbuilding industry for its naval vessels that is incredibly impressive. The Indian capabiity is not as great...but they have a capability and they are using it to meet their needs where they can, and clearly supplementing it with help form others (Russia, the US, the French, etc.)

This is one of the real issues with the Indians...breaking out where they o not need that help. The Chinese have successfully broken out and are doing it on their own for the vast majority of all of their needs. it will be some time before the Indians can do so. In the mean time, they are doing what they can, and with respect to their vessels, they are building decentr DDGs now, and FFGs as well.

but they still import FFGs from Russia, importe dtheir only operational carrier from Russia (in fact Russia built it for them).

The Chinese carrier that is operational was also built initially by the Russians, but the Chinese did the entire refit themselves.

And now both countries have built their own indigenous carrier.

Anyhow...we have probably beat this to death.

 

[Blitzo]

Bltizo, I am not "dodging" anything, and challenge you to show that I have...that simply is not a good use of terms IMHO.

I'm not saying you're "dodging" anything, I'm saying that omitting the full time frame of activity is dodgy, in this case meaning that it doesn't tell the full scope of the relevant information one may be interested in potentially leading to an unrepresentative assessment of the situation.

I'd argue that's a pretty reasonable term to use.

Well, it does not matter...I said what I said and Is tand by it. I think you took it wrong personally.

I have been following what the US, the French, the INdians, the Chinese, the Japnese, etc. have been doing for decades.

I simply made a statement that the Indians are "doing" something. They are not all talk.

That was not a dodge in any way shape or form. it is a statement of fact.

The Chinese have also very impressively been "doing."

My intent was not to try and say who is best...simply that both nations are "doing."

Clearly, the Chinese have amassed a shipbuilding industry for its naval vessels that is incredibly impressive. The Indian capabiity is not as great...but they have a capability and they are using it to meet their needs where they can, and clearly supplementing it with help form others (Russia, the US, the French, etc.)

This is one of the real issues with the Indians...breaking out where they o not need that help. The Chinese have successfully broken out and are doing it on their own for the vast majority of all of their needs. it will be some time before the Indians can do so. In the mean time, they are doing what they can, and with respect to their vessels, they are building decentr DDGs now, and FFGs as well.

but they still import FFGs from Russia, importe dtheir only operational carrier from Russia (in fact Russia built it for them).

The Chinese carrier that is operational was also built initially by the Russians, but the Chinese did the entire refit themselves.

And now both countries have built their own indigenous carrier.

Anyhow...we have probably beat this to death.

Look, all I'm saying is that if you really want to talk about the degree that the Indian and Chinese shipbuilding industries are "doing" in regards to their indigenous carrier activities, the only fair way to do so would be based on the full length of time their carriers have been worked on relative to each other. The time in which each ship goes out to sea trials or when both is commissioned is rather arbitrary and irrelevant if the comparison of the degree of "doing" is of interest.

 

[jobjed]

Bltizo, I am not "dodging" anything, and challenge you to show that I have...that simply is not a good use of terms IMHO

Don't know if Americans use "dodgy" in everyday conversation but in Australia, it means "flawed" or "suspect".