CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
You should take into account the time spent in port when you consider how much usable carrier capacity the Chinese will have. But for a show of force, even a single carrier might be enough. Remember what the Russians did with the Kuznetsov. They sailed it all around Europe to the other side of the Mediterranean to support ops in Syria. Despite its bad condition. I would not be surprised to see China do the same, say in an operation in the Middle East, if they felt the need to do it. I have no reason to think the Chinese couldn't put two carrier groups on the sea at the same time operationally on a mission, if they wanted to, in a couple years time for a show of force.

Since they have multiple crews on the Liaoning, which was used as a training carrier, and they also have land based training facilities the time to put two carriers into service simultaneously would not be that long. Also unlike Russia, the Chinese have the oiler and suply ships to make long distance missions already available. Even without the Type 055, which will be available by then, the amount of destroyers and frigates they have already would be quite enough to serve as carrier escorts for two carriers.

As for stealth aircraft it remains to be seen what's their operational reliability and how the stealth coatings handle sea conditions. The USA is just now putting the F-35C to test on its own carriers. I think China has no reason to rush their naval stealth fighter until the CATOBAR carrier class comes out. The STOBAR carriers can be used in a show of force against low-level nations. But against peer or near peer nations even if you used them you would need better aircraft and cruiser coverage. Which I expect will happen eventually. I think a lot of people fail to realize that the Chinese clones of the Su-27 use a lot of composite materials in their construction already. More than the original Su-27 does. So I expect it to be kind of similar to the Eurofighter in terms of low observability characteristics. What it cannot do (yet) is supercruise. If there is something which is a danger IMHO is the present lack of Chinese naval AWACS aircraft in service at the moment. With regards to the J-15 it needs to be enhanced with better engines to maximize the thrust-to-weight ratio and increase the combat payload. To compete with the Super Hornet it also needs some equivalent of the JHMCS. With that and improved avionics it should pose a significant threat to the bulk of the opposition aircraft it might be used against.
 

anzha

Captain
Registered Member
So yeah J20 is more than just stealth

But stealth is very much a cornerstone of its design.

All those other things apply to other 5th gen fighters to some extent or another, but stealth is very much a fundamental property as well.

Stealth is most likely not going away for the 6th gen either: delaying the enemy's ability to see a platform, allows for a shooter to get off their shots much closer and potentially first. It is not a panacea. However, it absolutely required.
 

anzha

Captain
Registered Member
As for stealth aircraft it remains to be seen what's their operational reliability and how the stealth coatings handle sea conditions.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. IIRC, it was one of the reasons why the NATF was cancelled despite the USN wanting a replacement for the F-14: the coatings were problematic dealing with marine conditions. I would not be surprised to see the Chinese take their time and get it right. They have many things to learn about carrier ops first and its unlikely they will get into a peer or near peer fight in the next ten years.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I think you've hit the nail on the head. IIRC, it was one of the reasons why the NATF was cancelled despite the USN wanting a replacement for the F-14: the coatings were problematic dealing with marine conditions. I would not be surprised to see the Chinese take their time and get it right. They have many things to learn about carrier ops first and its unlikely they will get into a peer or near peer fight in the next ten years.

China can't wait that long I bet they will go faster than that . The bottle neck is not J15 but pilot training Right now China has about 40 Carrier qualified pilot . BTW most of those pilot are recruited form experience air force pilot . They are not green horn so aside from carrier landing and take off they are very experience pilot

Going back to carrier pilot training The rate of carrier qualified pilot induction is about 6 per year China need at least 70 carrier pilot for 2 squadron of J 15 So China is short about 30 pilot /6 per year = 5 years plus 1 or 2 years I will say it will take China 5 to 7 years to be on par with US navy

There are effort to speed thing up instead of poaching pilot from air force now they try to train pilot from ground up and stream line pilot training to 3 steps from 4 That is why you see the induction JL10 and more JL9G in PLAN AF and greatly increase the intake of pilot trainee. In general it took 4 or 5 year to train carrier qualified pilot from ground up
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
New training aircraft expected to help PLA Navy pilots polish carrier skills
By Zhao Lei | China Daily | Updated: 2018-08-14 08:58

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China's latest trainer aircraft, delivered recently to the People's Liberation Army Navy, is expected to help improve the training of pilots based on aircraft carriers.

The PLA Navy said in a statement last week that its Naval Aviation University in Shandong province had held a commissioning ceremony for a new type of trainer jet at an unidentified naval airport along the Bohai Sea.

The statement said the aircraft is a third-generation trainer jet developed by the Aviation Industry Corp of China's Hongdu Aviation Industry Group in Nanchang, Jiangxi province.

Rear Admiral Wang Jundong, political commissar of the university, was quoted in the statement as saying at the ceremony that the service of the new trainer jet will complement the university's trainer fleet and enable pilots to get more realistic experience for air combat.

Though the statement did not identify the new aircraft, pictures published by the university showed that it is a Hongdu Aviation Industry L-15 advanced trainer jet. At least 12 L-15s were delivered at the ceremony.

According to AVIC, a leading aircraft maker in the country, the domestically developed L-15 has two engines, a streamlined aerodynamic design and integrated avionics.

The L-15 has two types - one for advanced jet training and the other for lead-in fighter training, the State-owned defense giant said.

Trainer jets for advanced application teach student pilots how to operate supersonic aircraft and how to carry out sophisticated aerial maneuvers, while those for lead-in fighter training are enhanced versions of advanced jet models and focus on familiarizing trainees with combat maneuvers and skills.

AVIC also noted that the L-15 has a maximum speed of 1,200 kilometers per hour and a maximum flight range of 2,600 km.

Before the L-15, the PLA Navy lacked a third-generation trainer aircraft, so it had to rely on its second-generation JJ-7 trainer jet and that aircraft's upgraded version, the JL-9, to conduct advanced training for student pilots.

Currently, a Navy flight student will fly the CJ-6 pistonengine basic trainer, followed by the JL-8 intermediate trainer jet. When pilots begin the advanced training stage, both the JJ-7 and JL-9 will be used to simulate real fighter aircraft.

Wang Ya'nan, editor-in-chief of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, said the use of the L-15 will help shorten the time required for Navy aviators' training before they become qualified to operate modern fighter jets. The trainer jet will be especially useful for carrier-based pilots, Wang said.

"The L-15 has advanced design and equipment, and its capabilities are very close to those of a genuine fighter jet. Compared with its predecessors, it is more suitable for carrier-based pilots' flight training," Wang said.
JL10 LIFT
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JL9G Advanced jet trainer
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K8 Basic Jet trainer
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Remember what the Russians did with the Kuznetsov. They sailed it all around Europe to the other side of the Mediterranean to support ops in Syria.

Kuznetsov spent a lot of time at anchor while her aircraft were ashore conducting combat sorties because of material condition issues with the ship.

The Russian Navy claimed that Admiral Kuznetsov's air wing conducted an impressive 420 sorties — 117 of which were done at night — that destroyed "over a thousand of terrorist facilities."

But the mission was not without its losses. The carrier
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, a MiG-29K on its first day of flight operations and an SU-33 two weeks later because of problems with its arresting cables.

The arresting cable issues were deemed to be so bad, that Admiral Kuznetsov's entire air wing had to be
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inland to one of Russia's air bases in order for them to continue conducting airstrikes.

source >>>>
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Honestly I know the Chinese carriers are in much better condition and more fully mission operable than her Russian sister ship.
 

Interstellar

Junior Member
Registered Member
She's indeed back at home...

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(2048 x 1367)
43509352145_2cf7a4c361_k.jpg
The sea trial ended so soon.
I guess I jumped the gun last time. Next time i will only post when the ship is back!

Type 001A Aircraft Carrier Sea Trials

first sea trial (13 may 2018 - 18 may 2018) (5 days)
second sea trial (25 august 2018 - 1 september 2018) (7 days)

total 12 days at sea in 141 days

For comparison with the Liaoning.

Sea trials under shipyard

first sea trial (10 august 2011 – 13 august 2011) (3 days)
second sea trial (28 november 2011 – 10 december 2011) (12 days)
third sea trial (20 december 2011 – 29 december 2011) (9 days)
fourth sea trial (7 january 2012 – 16 january 2012) (9 days)
fifth sea trial (19 april 2012 – 30 april 2012) (11 days)
sixth sea trial (7 may 2012 – 16 may 2012) (9 days)
seventh sea trial (23 may 2012 – 1 june 2012) (9 days)
eighth sea trial (7 june 2012 – 21 june 2012 ) (14 days)
ninth sea trial (6 july 2012 – 30 july 2012) (24 days)
tenth sea trial (27 august 2012 – 30 august 2012) (3 days)

total 103 days at sea in 1 year and 20 days

Sea trials under PLAN (commissioned on 25 september 2012)

first sea trial (11 october 2012 – 30 october 2012) (19 days)
second sea trail (12 november 2012 – 25 november 2012) (13 days)
third sea trial (11 june 2013 - 3 july 2013) (22 days)

total days at sea 157 days

The second sea trail hasn't finished yet. I wonder where these fake news stories come from.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
J 20 is more than just stealth there is EOT, HMD, Data fusion, New radar new avionic, new radar , new missile a whole bunch of technology It is a generational leap compare to J 10. China need to keep up with new technology or else she will fall behind NOt to mention revitalize and upgrade the industrial base to support the technology Think of hundred of plants, research institute , universities and thousand of engineer It is breath taking undertaking

So yeah J20 is more than just stealth
Oh right, so J-20 (and I'm sure J-31) is more-than-just-stealth but F-22 and F-35 are just-stealth, which is why your flippant dismissal of stealth fighters applies only to F-22 and F-35 but definitely not to J-20 and J-31. Got it. :rolleyes:
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Kuznetsov spent a lot of time at anchor while her aircraft were ashore conducting combat sorties because of material condition issues with the ship.

Honestly I know the Chinese carriers are in much better condition and more fully mission operable than her Russian sister ship.

Well IIRC the Ford class has also been having issues with their new electromagnetic arrestor system. Considering how old the Kuznetsov was and the level of inexperience of its crew I think it was surprising the Russians were able to do it at all. Which is why I would not dismiss Chinese use of these carriers for actual operations if they do need to use them.

I was just reading the other day an old article about how the J-15 was unsuitable because it can't carry larger radar missiles and an anti-shipping missile payload at the same time because of the limitations of STOBAR. Well if that was a problem, they could just assign some J-15s for escort duty, with the radar missiles, while others did the bombing duty, with the naval missiles. It's a limitation of the system. You work around it. For example the UK used the subsonic Harrier with another STOBAR carrier class. The Harrier had a pathetic maximum weight capacity and next to no sensors. Yet they still managed to win against supersonic Argentinian Mirage fighter aircraft in the Falklands War because the Argentinian AF had range issues and British pilots developed tactics to cope with the dissimilarities between both airplanes.

I think there are many questions about the use of F-35 variants in naval service. Like I said before there's the issue of the lifetime of the RAM coatings. Another issue is that it's a single engine aircraft. For some reason the USN got the F/A-18 instead of the F-16. Bad experiences with single-engine airplanes like the Crusader. Some would say the impeccable F-16 record counters this but then again it wasn't being used in a naval environment where corrosion might be more of an issue. A lot of the mishaps the Chinese had with the J-15 were due to fly-by-wire problems. The system was not properly tuned for the naval environment. They also had a case of bird ingestion in one of the engines in one case.
 
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