CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

[P5678]

I think it’s becoming a misconception that things are cheaper in China. Nowadays, it has become so common for those “fresh-off-the-boat” Chinese to exclaim “man! Things are so cheap in the US!”

I’ve seen many Chinese coming to the US for the sole purpose of shopping because things in the US have become so much cheaper than the same things in China. I’ve heard stories of many Chinese spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in the US because the same products in China would cost significantly more. And I’m not talking about only luxury goods, but everyday stuff like clothes and electronics.

Salary in China is also not what it was before. My mother-in-law was a high school chemistry teacher before she retired. Her retirement is now US$12,000 annually, plus additional pay for Medicare stuff. The high school teachers who are still working make a lot more.

Although average income for all Chinese is still low, ~US$9,000, the salary for the white collar workers in China is almost on a similar level as their western counterparts. I myself have been recruited by some universities in China. And they offer a pay that’s actually higher than what I’m making now in Texas, in absolute dollars.

And here when we discuss salaries for the military, we are specifically talking about the navy, where most of the sailors in the PLAN have college degrees or higher. So they are white collar workers. And they get paid much better because the Navy is competing with all those multinational companies for the same talent, they must offer similar benefits.

While I agree that the Chinese sailors get paid less than their western counterparts, I do not believe the gap is as big as some would have believed. In fact, it is my belief that some positions in the PLAN, especially technicians and engineers, might even get paid more than their western counterparts. For civilian engineers and scientists, that is often the case.

Everytime I traveled to China, I found food, non-luxury goods and transportation (especially taxi and train) are much cheaper in China than in US. From salary point of view, I have heard my company pays senior managers (VP and directors) similar in China and US, but pay entry level employees much lower in China than in US.

 

[vesicles]

Big mac index is not a good indicator for that case. Big Mac in China likely get most of the ingredient from the US (including beef and chicken nuggets). Also only small proportion of Chinese actually buy Big Mac .. even small proportion ... actually big number

And many goods in the US come from China too. We need something that is sold in both countries and bought by the common people in large quantity. It’s a way to show spending power.

 

[antiterror13]

And many goods in the US come from China too. We need something that is sold in both countries and bought by the common people in large quantity. It’s a way to show spending power.

and big mac is not something that common people in China would buy

 

[kwaigonegin]

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People have been using the Big Mac index to compare spending power of different countries. This obvisouly compares every day consumables for average Joes. As the above website shows, in 2017, a Big Mac costed $5.3 in the US and $3.2 in China. Still less, but not as much as you would have thought.

What the index suggests is that the same thing in China costs about 2/3 of the cost for the same thing in the US. If we extrapolate from this, a carrier in China would cost 2/3 of a carrier of the same class in the US. Of course, the USN super carrier is much bigger and much more expensive. With that being said, the material and labor disparity should be ~2/3, closer to what Jeff has suggested, not 1/10 suggested by you.

We just have to agree to disagree on this point. My 1/10 estimation is based on total operating cost between a typical Nimitz class and CV 17.
It would be an absolute waste and extremely terrible ROI for PLAN if it cost them as much as 30 to 40% to operate Liaoning as compare to USN operating a nuclear carrier with over twice as many aircrafts, flying 4 or 5 times as many sorties and three times the amount of mouths to feed and maintain.

 

[hkbc]

I think it’s becoming a misconception that things are cheaper in China. Nowadays, it has become so common for those “fresh-off-the-boat” Chinese to exclaim “man! Things are so cheap in the US!”

I’ve seen many Chinese coming to the US for the sole purpose of shopping because things in the US have become so much cheaper than the same things in China. I’ve heard stories of many Chinese spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in the US because the same products in China would cost significantly more. And I’m not talking about only luxury goods, but everyday stuff like clothes and electronics.

Salary in China is also not what it was before. My mother-in-law was a high school chemistry teacher before she retired. Her retirement is now US$12,000 annually, plus additional pay for Medicare stuff. The high school teachers who are still working make a lot more.

Although average income for all Chinese is still low, ~US$9,000, the salary for the white collar workers in China is almost on a similar level as their western counterparts. I myself have been recruited by some universities in China. And they offer a pay that’s actually higher than what I’m making now in Texas, in absolute dollars.

And here when we discuss salaries for the military, we are specifically talking about the navy, where most of the sailors in the PLAN have college degrees or higher. So they are white collar workers. And they get paid much better because the Navy is competing with all those multinational companies for the same talent, they must offer similar benefits.

While I agree that the Chinese sailors get paid less than their western counterparts, I do not believe the gap is as big as some would have believed. In fact, it is my belief that some positions in the PLAN, especially technicians and engineers, might even get paid more than their western counterparts. For civilian engineers and scientists, that is often the case.

Global Market forces don't really apply to Defence/Military, a hot shot Chinese general isn't able to jump on a plane and take a better paying position in another country, unlike say a hot shot scientist or CEO in civilian life. People join the military for a whole host of reasons, but it's seldom because the pay packet is the most competitive! Whilst the officer corps may well be compensated at say as much as 75-80 percentile of other tier 1 navies, those lower down the scale won't be and they form the bulk of the man power.

in Chinese and East Asian societies in general they don't follow the "those who can't do, teach" mentality. In China and Japan, if local school districts cannot meet competitive salary requirements for teachers, the central government invests in the teacher's salaries to ensure they stay in the profession, so probably not the best job category to use for comparative purposes.

Comparisons of cost profiles for different militaries serve no real purpose except to drive political agendas, different countries face different threats and have different priorities. May be a few dollars more spent on education and a few dollars less on guns and bombs might actually make the world a safer place, who knows!

 

[Deino]

Guys ... are we still in the Type 002 (001A?) thread or are we discussing politics, economics and so on?

 

[asif iqbal]

Back to topic I think CV-17 is all most ready for sailing

Weeks now not months

 

[Air Force Brat]

Carriers do not sail on their own they sail part of the overall carrier task group

The cost depends on the manning power, because that is the largest bill

for USN there's over 5,000 personal in the entire strike group and that costs around $2.5 billion per year if deployed 24/7, that is why Ford Class is cheaper less manpower and will save $4.8 billion over the lifetime of the carrier

for Royal Navy it would be less since less manpower is required

for PLAN the same would apply since they are both ski jumps and overall manning is lower

But put it this way, there is no cheap way to run a carrier strike group, only top tier navy’s can afford it, it’s a good way for small country’s to go bankrupt

Amen! it does actually make me happy to see the Chinese Naval buildup,, glad to know they will soon be experiencing life on the high seas,, and it does require a tremendous investment in engineering and architecture to "get with the program", not to mention that day to day costs never go away....

 

[kwaigonegin]

I would love to see a PLAN CSG and a USN CSG working together and training TOGETHER in the next few years. Aside from fostering good relations there is also an actual positive operational aspect to it. Navies who work or worked together also knows the expectation of each other. When each entity knows the other, it lessens the chance of misunderstanding, miscommunication and mistakes. It's not that much difference on the macro level down to the individual human level.
PLAN is already the 2nd largest navy in the world and in the coming decade would match maybe even exceed the entire US 7th fleet in capability and power.
It is a GOOD thing to sail together as it fosters intra navy cooperation and cement the concept of brotherhood regardless of the flag each person sails under.
When you're out in the high seas all sailors are brothers. Politicians cause wars. The guy scrubbing the deck or manning the pri fly holds those others in the high seas with high regard and respect.

 

[bd popeye]

When you're out in the high seas all sailors are brothers. Politicians cause wars. The guy scrubbing the deck or manning the pri fly holds those others in the high seas with high regard and respect.

You got that correct! Amen!!

I remember the times ships I was abroad would refuel or just go along side another Navy's ship. Everything was cordial. Shipmates waving at each other taking photos..etc..etc...