CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

[kwaigonegin]

Thanks @Jeff Head and others .. another proof we can learn a lot from this very respected forum

woow, not cheap at all, I'd guess for Chinese CBG (being smaller, conventional, lower wages and lower tempo) the cost probably 1/3 of USN CBG or roughly $0.75B a year ... still a lot of money

I would guesstimate significantly much less...I would say taken everything into consideration the actual operating cost of Liaoning would be no more than 1/10 Nimitz class.
Salary alone would be significantly less. Both in crew numbers and in compensation and other costs like what Jeff detailed out.
You also have to take into account a dollar in China likely goes much further than a dollar in the US which plays a significant role in operation cost and amortization of other things,

I think a better apples to,apples comparison is either navy operates BOTH ships. For ex. USN operates both Nimitz and CV17 or PLAN operates both then do a comparison. That way we elimate a lot of unknowns like dollar inflation, price parity, conversions etc.

 

[vesicles]

I would guesstimate significantly much less...I would say taken everything into consideration the actual operating cost of Liaoning would be no more than 1/10 Nimitz class.
Salary alone would be significantly less. Both in crew numbers and in compensation and other costs like what Jeff detailed out.
You also have to take into account a dollar in China likely goes much further than a dollar in the US which plays a significant role in operation cost and amortization of other things,

I think a better apples to,apples comparison is either navy operates BOTH ships. For ex. USN operates both Nimitz and CV17 or PLAN operates both then do a comparison. That way we elimate a lot of unknowns like dollar inflation, price parity, conversions etc.

I think it’s becoming a misconception that things are cheaper in China. Nowadays, it has become so common for those “fresh-off-the-boat” Chinese to exclaim “man! Things are so cheap in the US!”

I’ve seen many Chinese coming to the US for the sole purpose of shopping because things in the US have become so much cheaper than the same things in China. I’ve heard stories of many Chinese spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in the US because the same products in China would cost significantly more. And I’m not talking about only luxury goods, but everyday stuff like clothes and electronics.

Salary in China is also not what it was before. My mother-in-law was a high school chemistry teacher before she retired. Her retirement is now US$12,000 annually, plus additional pay for Medicare stuff. The high school teachers who are still working make a lot more.

Although average income for all Chinese is still low, ~US$9,000, the salary for the white collar workers in China is almost on a similar level as their western counterparts. I myself have been recruited by some universities in China. And they offer a pay that’s actually higher than what I’m making now in Texas, in absolute dollars.

And here when we discuss salaries for the military, we are specifically talking about the navy, where most of the sailors in the PLAN have college degrees or higher. So they are white collar workers. And they get paid much better because the Navy is competing with all those multinational companies for the same talent, they must offer similar benefits.

While I agree that the Chinese sailors get paid less than their western counterparts, I do not believe the gap is as big as some would have believed. In fact, it is my belief that some positions in the PLAN, especially technicians and engineers, might even get paid more than their western counterparts. For civilian engineers and scientists, that is often the case.

 

[Franklin]

According to Yahoo news the Type 001A is going on sea trail soon.

First Chinese-built Aircraft Carrier Ready for Sea Trials As Beijing Showcases Naval Power

China’s first domestically-built aircraft carrier is now preparing for sea trials. The carrier is a potent symbol of the modernized Chinese military and of Beijing’s ambition to be a self-reliant top-tier global power.

The carrier, launched in the northern Chinese port of Dalian on April 26, 2017, is known as the Type 001A. The latest photos from the shipyard where the carrier was launched show that the scaffolds on the ship have now been removed and that a phased array radar has been installed, China’s Global Times newspaper reported.

The news comes as China conducted a massive naval exercise in the South China Sea. Beijing said the drill was the start of more frequent exercises as China challenges U.S. regional influence.

China introduced its first ever aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, in 2012. The former Soviet Kuznetsov-class carrier was procured from Russia and repurposed for Chinese use. The deployment of the Type 001A will be a powerful statement of China’s long-term intention to advance its interests in the South China Sea, already a diplomatic flash point.

The steam-powered, 1,033-foot Type 001A will have a full load displacement of around 77,000 tons. It will be able to carry 48 aircraft when deployed. Though impressive, this is still less than the U.S. Navy’s Nimitz-class nuclear-powered supercarriers, which are the largest warships ever built. The USS George H.W. Bush — the most recent Nimitz-class carrier — is 1,092-feet long, displaces around 102,000 tons and generally carries up to 56 fixed-wing aircraft.

Liu Zheng, the chairman of the Dalian Shipbuilding Industry Company that operates the shipyard preparing the Type 001A, told state television broadcaster China Central Television, “All the equipment and devices on the carrier are in the joint debugging stage, and the main engine has been powered. In 2018, we will present a surprise to the Chinese people.” Liu is also the general director of construction for the Type 001A and a member of the National People’s Congress (NPC).

While it seems clear the Type 001A is preparing for sea trials, their exact timing has not been announced. The military might be eyeing China’s Navy Day on April 23, which marks the founding of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy. This year will mark the navy’s 69-year anniversary.

Chinese military expert Song Zhongping told Global Times: "After the sea trial, which normally takes about 6-12 months, it will be ready for delivery to the PLA Navy, so it's very likely we will see the carrier enlisted by the end of 2018.”

The eventual name of the Type 001A is yet to be decided. PLA Navy warships are traditionally named after Chinese regions, but some politicians and social media users have argued the carrier’s name should signal an intent to re-establish control over Taiwan as part of Beijing’s "One China" policy.

Suggestions include naming the warship after Shi Lang, an admiral who recaptured Taiwan for the Qing dynasty in 1683. Another proposed name is simply "Taiwan," Global Times said.

China’s third carrier, known as the Type 002, is already under construction. It will be even larger than the 001A, with a displacement of around 88,000 tons.

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[Lethe]

Costs to build and operate an American carrier group are low enough that a bunch of countries could afford it if everything was purchased via the United States.

But any nation that could afford to do that is going to pursue an independent and necessarily more modest capability instead. More modest owing to lack of economies of scale and the cost of developing all the myriad technologies and capabilities.

(And that's why Australia seems to punch above its weight, i.e. because we do so little ourselves. Of course the consequence of this is that we are almost entirely reliant upon the continued grace of allies, chiefly the United States)

 

[kwaigonegin]

I think it’s becoming a misconception that things are cheaper in China. Nowadays, it has become so common for those “fresh-off-the-boat” Chinese to exclaim “man! Things are so cheap in the US!”

I’ve seen many Chinese coming to the US for the sole purpose of shopping because things in the US have become so much cheaper than the same things in China. I’ve heard stories of many Chinese spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in the US because the same products in China would cost significantly more. And I’m not talking about only luxury goods, but everyday stuff like clothes and electronics.

Salary in China is also not what it was before. My mother-in-law was a high school chemistry teacher before she retired. Her retirement is now US$12,000 annually, plus additional pay for Medicare stuff. The high school teachers who are still working make a lot more.

Although average income for all Chinese is still low, ~US$9,000, the salary for the white collar workers in China is almost on a similar level as their western counterparts. I myself have been recruited by some universities in China. And they offer a pay that’s actually higher than what I’m making now in Texas, in absolute dollars.

And here when we discuss salaries for the military, we are specifically talking about the navy, where most of the sailors in the PLAN have college degrees or higher. So they are white collar workers. And they get paid much better because the Navy is competing with all those multinational companies for the same talent, they must offer similar benefits.

While I agree that the Chinese sailors get paid less than their western counterparts, I do not believe the gap is as big as some would have believed. In fact, it is my belief that some positions in the PLAN, especially technicians and engineers, might even get paid more than their western counterparts. For civilian engineers and scientists, that is often the case.

Not to get too off topic but I was refering to total cost not individual standpoint through the lens of an individual since the question posed relates to operational gcost i.e borned by the respective government. I do however agree with many points you stated in terms of rising wages etc. in china etc as it moves to a more middle class economy.

regardless, the US government rightly or wrongly, efficiently or very inefficiently spends a LOT more for each individual sailor, airman, soldier than any country on earth. Aside from salary, VA benefits, medical/healthcare, SS, pension, education other incidentals into play each person cost the government a lot. Multiply that by 6000 (on a nimitz) the cost is exorbitant. Like I said I can almost guarantee you operating Liaoning in actual dollars is no more than 1/10 that of operating a Nimitz class carrier. I will stick to that unless proven otherwise.

Unlike Liaoning, Nimitz is also a nuke which means refueling, RCOH etc which cost a lot even after amortization.

Personally I think a lot of that cost is overhead and waste because many private contractors also have this bad habit of over charging uncle sam which bloats up cost.

Back to my original point.. The best way to have a true gauge of cost is for each Navy to operate both vessel. Only then can a fair value comparison be made.

 

[Jeff Head]

According to Yahoo news the Type 001A is going on sea trail soon.

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While the new Chinese carrier "may" be able to carry an absolute 48 airraft, the Nimitz class can carry MUCH more.

It is true that now, in peace time they cruise around with 60 or so aircraft, but they are capable of carrying in excess of 90 aircraft, and at times during the cold war routinely did so.

So they difference in numbers are much greater than what this article indicates.

As to when she will sail for her builder's trials...all I can say is that I believe it will be soon. I would have though in MArch...now I think April.

 

[antiterror13]

While the new Chinese carrier "may" be able to carry an absolute 48 airraft, the Nimitz class can carry MUCH more.

It is true that now, in peace time they cruise around with 60 or so aircraft, but they are capable of carrying in excess of 90 aircraft, and at times during the cold war routinely did so.

So they difference in numbers are much greater than what this article indicates.

As to when she will sail for her builder's trials...all I can say is that I believe it will be soon. I would have though in MArch...now I think April.

Yes, the article was written by somebody who is not familiar with that matter.

I don't believe 017 can carry 48 J-15s ... perhaps what it means .. to carry total of 48 combination of aircraft and heli ... which is also a bit too stretch in my opinion

 

[kwaigonegin]

I think it’s becoming a misconception that things are cheaper in China. Nowadays, it has become so common for those “fresh-off-the-boat” Chinese to exclaim “man! Things are so cheap in the US!”

I’ve seen many Chinese coming to the US for the sole purpose of shopping because things in the US have become so much cheaper than the same things in China. I’ve heard stories of many Chinese spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in the US because the same products in China would cost significantly more. And I’m not talking about only luxury goods, but everyday stuff like clothes and electronics.

Salary in China is also not what it was before. My mother-in-law was a high school chemistry teacher before she retired. Her retirement is now US$12,000 annually, plus additional pay for Medicare stuff. The high school teachers who are still working make a lot more.

Although average income for all Chinese is still low, ~US$9,000, the salary for the white collar workers in China is almost on a similar level as their western counterparts. I myself have been recruited by some universities in China. And they offer a pay that’s actually higher than what I’m making now in Texas, in absolute dollars.

And here when we discuss salaries for the military, we are specifically talking about the navy, where most of the sailors in the PLAN have college degrees or higher. So they are white collar workers. And they get paid much better because the Navy is competing with all those multinational companies for the same talent, they must offer similar benefits.

While I agree that the Chinese sailors get paid less than their western counterparts, I do not believe the gap is as big as some would have believed. In fact, it is my belief that some positions in the PLAN, especially technicians and engineers, might even get paid more than their western counterparts. For civilian engineers and scientists, that is often the case.

I too have seen Chinese tourist spending like a drunken sailor however that is hardly a good gauge. These Chinese tourist represents a small percentage of the 1.6 B and the things they buy are typically branded fashion things not regular everday consumables.
While a woman's high hand bag may be much cheaper here than in China due to many many factors, I doubt a typical roll of toilet paper or a bag of rice is

While the new Chinese carrier "may" be able to carry an absolute 48 airraft, the Nimitz class can carry MUCH more.

It is true that now, in peace time they cruise around with 60 or so aircraft, but they are capable of carrying in excess of 90 aircraft, and at times during the cold war routinely did so.

So they difference in numbers are much greater than what this article indicates.

As to when she will sail for her builder's trials...all I can say is that I believe it will be soon. I would have though in MArch...now I think April.

Equally important if not more than the quantity of aircraft are the sorties rates. Nimitz class is able to shoot off more jets in. 24 hr period and sustained for longer than any other carriers. Ford will even improve on that figure through better design deck and aircfrat handing procedures.

 

[vesicles]

I too have seen Chinese tourist spending like a drunken sailor however that is hardly a good gauge. These Chinese tourist represents a small percentage of the 1.6 B and the things they buy are typically branded fashion things not regular everday consumables.
While a woman's high hand bag may be much cheaper here than in China due to many many factors, I doubt a typical roll of toilet paper or a bag of rice is


Equally important if not more than the quantity of aircraft are the sorties rates. Nimitz class is able to shoot off more jets in. 24 hr period and sustained for longer than any other carriers. Ford will even improve on that figure through better design deck and aircfrat handing procedures.

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People have been using the Big Mac index to compare spending power of different countries. This obvisouly compares every day consumables for average Joes. As the above website shows, in 2017, a Big Mac costed $5.3 in the US and $3.2 in China. Still less, but not as much as you would have thought.

What the index suggests is that the same thing in China costs about 2/3 of the cost for the same thing in the US. If we extrapolate from this, a carrier in China would cost 2/3 of a carrier of the same class in the US. Of course, the USN super carrier is much bigger and much more expensive. With that being said, the material and labor disparity should be ~2/3, closer to what Jeff has suggested, not 1/10 suggested by you.

 

[antiterror13]

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People have been using the Big Mac index to compare spending power of different countries. This obvisouly compares every day consumables for average Joes. As the above website shows, in 2017, a Big Mac costed $5.3 in the US and $3.2 in China. Still less, but not as much as you would have thought.

What the index suggests is that the same thing in China costs about 2/3 of the cost for the same thing in the US. If we extrapolate from this, a carrier in China would cost 2/3 of a carrier of the same class in the US. Of course, the USN super carrier is much bigger and much more expensive. With that being said, the material and labor disparity should be ~2/3, closer to what Jeff has suggested, not 1/10 suggested by you.

Big mac index is not a good indicator for that case. Big Mac in China likely get most of the ingredient from the US (including beef and chicken nuggets). Also only small proportion of Chinese actually buy Big Mac .. even small proportion ... actually big number