CV-17 Shandong (002 carrier) Thread I ...News, Views and operations

[kwaigonegin]

I don't know about that, Jeff. Away from land based air support, comprehensive USN, USAF, US Space, and US Cyber commands would make mincemeat out of the Shandong CBG. I affirm China's impressive accomplishment in such a small span of time, it is amazing. I also believe the Liaoning and Shandong CBGs could project power against its SCS neighbors, especially with support from Chinese newly created bases in the SCS. But, even the combined efforts of both Liaoning and Shandong CBGs stand no chance against even the retired Kittyhawk CBG. The comprehensive military, including nuclear attack subs, is just too wide between US and China at this point in time. I'm not trying to denigrate Chinese achievements, they are impressive indeed, I'm merely pointing out the stark naked truth: PLAN isn't up to USN standards yet, and wouldn't be for several decades.

I don't believe Jeff was pitting USN CSG vs Shadong LOL He said just respect which is a totally acceptable term IMHO.

Even assuming EVERYTHING being equal for the pure sake of hypothetical discussion, a USN CVN still maintains a numerical superiority in airwing over anyone else so that's that.

As to your argument about Liaoning + Shadnong vs Kitty Hawk (no other assets) I would say that would be a great epic sea battle! I wouldn't necessarily give Kitty Hawk a free pass. If she wins it would be extremely hard fought and she would win with likely significant loss/damage!

The combined airwing of both carriers would be about equal if not more to KH but the PLAN pair would have the advantage of coming in from 2 different vectors which would be a huge advantage!

The only obvious advantage I see with the KH would be Hawkeyes.

 

[Blackstone]

I don't believe Jeff was pitting USN CSG vs Shadong LOL He said just respect which is a totally acceptable term IMHO.

Even assuming EVERYTHING being equal for the pure sake of hypothetical discussion, a USN CVN still maintains a numerical superiority in airwing over anyone else so that's that.

As to your argument about Liaoning + Shadnong vs Kitty Hawk (no other assets) I would say that would be a great epic sea battle! I wouldn't necessarily give Kitty Hawk a free pass. If she wins it would be extremely hard fought and she would win with likely significant loss/damage!

The combined airwing of both carriers would be about equal if not more to KH but the PLAN pair would have the advantage of coming in from 2 different vectors which would be a huge advantage!

The only obvious advantage I see with the KH would be Hawkeyes.

Well, I did mention US nuclear attack submarines, and I don't think PLAN could deal with them at this point in time. It's true PLAN is improving ASW, and by all publicly available reports has made progress, but the same reports also say PLAN has a long ways to go. So, Liaoning and Shandong against Kitty Hawk with no support ships/subs on either side might be a closer fight, although I strongly suspect Hawkeyes would give US a decisive advantage, but the two groups with their support ships and subs is another matter altogether.

PLAN has made great strides and is a worthy foe for anyone, including the US. Nevertheless, we could both affirm that and still look at its shortcoming.

 

[asif iqbal]

Ok what's the parking configuration on the CV-17 can it squeeze a few more units on deck over the CV-16?

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Well, I did mention US nuclear attack submarines, and I don't think PLAN could deal with them at this point in time. It's true PLAN is improving ASW, and by all publicly available reports has made progress, but the same reports also say PLAN has a long ways to go. So, Liaoning and Shandong against Kitty Hawk with no support ships/subs on either side might be a closer fight, although I strongly suspect Hawkeyes would give US a decisive advantage, but the two groups with their support ships and subs is another matter altogether.

PLAN has made great strides and is a worthy foe for anyone, including the US. Nevertheless, we could both affirm that and still look at its shortcoming.

Now you are getting into support thing. Including the ASBM into the equation the chance for the Kitty hawk will be dicey I would say. Remember unlike the WWII there is no hiding place for carrier anymore.

No to count the Chinese submarine waiting in ambush

 

[kwaigonegin]

Ok what's the parking configuration on the CV-17 can it squeeze a few more units on deck over the CV-16?

Looking at the deck space I would say yes. I'm almost certain Shandong can and will carry a few more aircrafts than Liaoning.

 

[vesicles]

Vesicles, I'm no less amazed with China advancements than most here, but my retort to Jeff was more for putting a finer point on US being wary of current PLAN CBGs, and not to be a wet blanket. I appreciate the sensitivities of some SDF posters, and I'm replying to you thus to address them too. Nevertheless, sensitivities don't mean excessive self-censorship, and hecklers shouldn't get vetos. I suppose I could include caveats with most sensitive posts, but after a while they become proforma and lose potency.

I appreciate your constructive criticism, and I hope this message addresses your concerns.

Well, it's not so much about self-censorship, but more about showing respect. It's about respecting Jeff for not making such rookie mistake of implying the new Shangdong is comparable to the USN. It's also about respecting your fellow forum members for having enough mental capacity to appreciate Jeff's nice gesture and not to misunderstand Jeff's message. It's about respect.

Give compliments when it's due. No fine prints. Just plain compliments. Praise someone for a good job that they have done. It also showcases your confidence. Only confident people give compliments. Insecure people on the other hand always want to remind people of their weaknesses...

 

[Blackstone]

Well, it's not so much about self-censorship, but more about showing respect. It's about respecting Jeff for not making such rookie mistake of implying the new Shangdong is comparable to the USN. It's also about respecting your fellow forum members for having enough mental capacity to appreciate Jeff's nice gesture and not to misunderstand Jeff's message. It's about respect.

Jeff is well aware of my respect for his personal character and professional accomplishments. Full stop.

Give compliments when it's due. No fine prints. Just plain compliments. Praise someone for a good job that they have done. It also showcases your confidence. Only confident people give compliments. Insecure people on the other hand always want to remind people of their weaknesses...

So, you're the only person in the world who doesn't live in a glass house. I always hoped I'd meet him/her someday.

 

[asif iqbal]

Looking at the deck space I would say yes. I'm almost certain Shandong can and will carry a few more aircrafts than Liaoning.

Interesting that at the end of this statement he says CV-17 can store 6-8 more aircraft that CV-16 in the hanger

At 2:30 onwards

 

[jacksprat]

Like Blackstone I mean no disrespect to anyone one this forum, especially Jeff Head. But to speculate about a battle between the Kitty Hawk and the two Chinese carriers without the supporting battle groups, even putting aside the Hawkeye advantage for the Hawk, is inane. Neither country will ever leave it's carrier naked. And yes, the U.S. has not had to fight a war at sea in many years, power projection is not just limited to air ops overland, but about dominance of the airspace whether overland or the oceans. As for the ASBMs, well so far that remains undemonstrated that they can hit a manuering carrier at sea employing defensive countermeasures along with escorts, who are there with only one over-riding mission - to protect the carrier at all costs.

God forbid that we should ever learn how capable China's ASBMs, because a whole lot of people will die.

 

[Iron Man]

Liaoning + Shandong carrier groups fighting a single Kitty Hawk carrier group and standing "no chance" in the process is what is inane. Yes you have about the same number of fighters but the PLAN escort forces (including the ASW forces) are almost certainly going to be more than doubled compared to the Kitty Hawk. Is this is enough to defeat a Kitty Hawk CBG? I don't know, but dismissing this conflict as a foregone conclusion one way or the other smacks of uninformed bias.