Crisis in the Ukraine

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SampanViking

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see i dont know about the revelation of 3500 MIA. should it there be even a modicum of plausbility to this assertion i suspect the russians would have jumped all over it. so far i have not seen that.

the truth is casualty in this war has become a matter of strategic significance in this confrontation, similar to US occupation of iraq. i had once lived in ukraine for a while and i can say with confidence that the majority of ukrainians dont give a rats ass about their country, much less the part in which the population does not identify with it. the willingness to sacrifice in any form (ie family going to war, taxes, bad economy) is simply not there. the only reason that the population has tolerated the war thus far is because the fall of sloviansk has given them a reason to believe that ukraine can win it and do it quickly. Thus, to win the war, the rebels need to 1. cripple ukraine's national morale by inflicting massive casualty against its army and 2. demonstrate to the ukrainian population and the international community that this war cannot be finished quickly, at least before winter. this can be achieved partly through 1.

which brings me back to the point of the strategic implications of casualty on ukraine's side. if there was any reasonable ground to accuse kiev of downplaying its casualty figures, this should be something of significant value to the russians and they would have attempted to use it to galvanize ukraine's public opinion against the war. and the only reason that the assertion of such exaggerated figure was not aggressively propagated would have been because there was no reasonable ground to suspect it.

The figure of 3500 MIA came to my attention via the main Russian media and was attributed to the Ukrainian ministry of Defence. Russian media have also carried a number of estimates released from the Novorossiyan side, but all have not been "verified". I was actually asking if those that monitor the Ukrainian and pro Kiev net in Eastern Europe have read anything similar from official sources.

My own opinion is that I think the figure is credible. I base this simply on the scale of destruction that the Ukrainian military has suffered and clearly KIA of 500 would be miraculous. I have only posted none graphic pictures and videos to this site, but there are many others that clearly show that these were not slow burns or spiked vehicles from retreating forces. Simply noting the state of the corpses that were in none contained or of troops being carried externally, it is pretty clear that the full load of men inside will have been fully incinerated, leaving very little but the most forensic of traces.

The other aspect of course if the scale and intensity of the fighting. Literally if the official KIA figure was correct, the Blue and Yellow flag would be flying from the centres of Donetsk and Lughansk and would have been for some time. 500 KIA really boils down to a fighting vehicle being destroyed per day somewhere along the whole active front lines. So what are we being asked to believe, that a Ukrainian soldier gets hurt somewhere and the entire war stops on account of it?

Irrespective of whether people view it a merely propaganda or not, the Novorossiya militia have produced large quantities of footage, showing militia advancing into territory littered with wrecked Ukrainian vehicles, large numbers of corpses and a fair number of prisoners. What I do not see is anything similar; let alone comparable, put out by the Ukrainian side. There is only one logical conclusion to draw from this.
In that sense yesterdays pantomime about a destroyed Russian column looks like Kiev so desperate for "good news" that it is having to make it up on the weakest of pretexts. I can only reiterate, that if the formations of the military of the Russian Formations had indeed joined the war, we would not be having to ask if it had happened or not!

On a more general note. There is also quite a bit on the changes at the top in both DPR and LPR this last week (inc Strelkov). The point being made again and again is that behind the fog of war, the crisis in Ukraine still boils down to machinations and manoeuvres of rival oligarchs on both sides. While warriors like Strelkov were viewed as the War Party, Oligarchs in the region are being touted as the "Deal" party.
The suggestion being made is that the changes represent a resurgance of the deal party and that the failure of Kiev to win the war is forcing them to the negotiating table.
Which side does Putin favour? Well I would say both, viewing them as the Carrot and the Stick.

I see it as credible that the combination of poor Ukrainian military performance, the very real threat of the aid convoy signifying Russia's preparedness to enter the conflict and a lot of pressure from the EU and other outside interests to stop the fighting and normalise relations and business again, will be forcing people to the negotiating table, more urgently now than over the last couple of months.
 
Early this morning I went for a half-day trip, now I peeked at several servers ... this video
[video=youtube;BjAvnUa1Wak]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BjAvnUa1Wak[/video]
shows
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saying
"1200 troops who have been training in the Russian Federation over four months" together with "150 armored vehicles"
have joined the forces of
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"at the decisive moment"

It seems from among "main stream media" it was first noticed by a Moscow radio
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Ukrainian, Central European servers regurgitated
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Early this morning I went for a half-day trip, now I peeked at several servers ... this video
[video=youtube;BjAvnUa1Wak]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BjAvnUa1Wak[/video]
shows
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saying
"1200 troops who have been training in the Russian Federation over four months" together with "150 armored vehicles"
have joined the forces of
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"at the decisive moment"

It seems from among "main stream media" it was first noticed by a Moscow radio
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Ukrainian, Central European servers regurgitated

that would be quite significant if it is true. the siege of donetsk will be something like moscow. if DPR can fend off the Ukrainian army until winter, the additional strain on logistics as a result of cold weather might preclude any major offensive until early next year. but of course perpetuating the conflict in this manner without any effort at reconciliation will not sit well with the ukrainian public and even the european community. I think the rebels have the best chance if they focus on delaying ukrainian advance as much as possible, that means they should not be looking for any decisive battles.
 
During last hour I tried to find out what was going on today ... both sides report "a prolonged shelling" of Donetsk; Separatists are quoted here:
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pro-Government on-line reporting:
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(by the way, the last entry in there now says at #14 Bolsheviks (sic!) Street in Donetsk -- as I checked, an existing address:
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-- a barn (?), a tool-shed (?), or whatever, burnt)
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
that would be quite significant if it is true. the siege of donetsk will be something like moscow. if DPR can fend off the Ukrainian army until winter, the additional strain on logistics as a result of cold weather might preclude any major offensive until early next year. but of course perpetuating the conflict in this manner without any effort at reconciliation will not sit well with the ukrainian public and even the european community. I think the rebels have the best chance if they focus on delaying ukrainian advance as much as possible, that means they should not be looking for any decisive battles.

But Russians aren't invading or helping these people... Lavrov the Honest and Putin the Great said so! How is this possible. Everyone knows that Russia has invaded Ukraine and yet people are pretending that it's not happening. Ridiculous.

Let's say as it is... Russians are trying to invade whole Ukraine by using a proxy army and anyone who thinks they are planning to stop after Eastern Ukraine is fooling themselves.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
But Russians aren't invading or helping these people... Lavrov the Honest and Putin the Great said so! How is this possible. Everyone knows that Russia has invaded Ukraine and yet people are pretending that it's not happening. Ridiculous.

Let's say as it is... Russians are trying to invade whole Ukraine by using a proxy army and anyone who thinks they are planning to stop after Eastern Ukraine is fooling themselves.

i also believe that at some point when it becomes an absolute necessity that russia will deploy its forces in eastern ukraine. they dont really need to fight just sorta be there as a presence which follows the same logic as the early stages of operation desert shield. Ukr army will be hesitant to initiate hostility out of fear of provoking a conflict that it cannot win. and its soldiers and low ranking officers will refuse any order to initiate contact with russian forces for the same reason. at least this would be the logic of a peacekeeping deployment.

as for proxy army going to kiev...they can barely fend for themselves as it stands. i think if they manage to turn this into a stalemate with or without overt russian help, both DPR and LPR would be content with political settlements. neither side has the stomach for prolonged conflict imo
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
World

Russia Dismisses Allegations About Concealing Content of Humanitarian Cargo to Donbas
Men are unloading a van with humanitarian aid for eastern Ukraine
Men are unloading a van with humanitarian aid for eastern Ukraine
© RIA Novosti. Vladimir Makarov
15:48 16/08/2014
Tags: humanitarian aid, International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), Russian Foreign Ministry, Donetsk, Ukraine, Russia
Related News
Ukraine Refuses to Recognize Russia’s Cargo as Humanitarian Aid – Red Cross
Donetsk Prime Minister Says Republic in Need of Russian Humanitarian Aid
US Supports Humanitarian Aid to Luhansk Through Red Cross
Ukrainian Military May Use Force to Stop Humanitarian Aid Convoy - Moscow
Four Million Ukrainians in Combat Area, on Verge of Humanitarian Catastrophe - Russia
MOSCOW, August 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russian Foreign Ministry has denied the allegations about concealing the information about the content of Russia’s humanitarian cargo sent to help residents of southeastern Ukraine, the ministry said in a statement.
“[We] categorically deny malevolent fact spinning that the representatives of several governmental structures of Ukraine have been busy with recently. In particular, according to media reports, representatives of Ukraine’s Security Service maintain that the Russian side refused to deliver the cargo for the Donbas region through Kiev-controlled checkpoints,” the statement reads.
“[They] spread allegations that we did not provide official information about the content of the humanitarian aid,” the ministry added.
The ministry stressed that the itinerary of the aid delivery had been agreed with Ukraine and that the detailed list of the humanitarian cargo had been handed over to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), who did not ask for additional specifications.
“That’s why attempts to make it look as if the Russian side is delaying the handover of documents to the Red Cross, are, to say the least, puzzling,” Russia’s Foreign Ministry said.
Earlier today, the ICRC said that it would take Russia’s humanitarian convoy under its responsibility only after Moscow and Kiev reach an agreement and that trilateral talks are underway.
“Russian and Ukrainian sides should reach an agreement. Unless there is a detailed deal, the Red Cross cannot take the cargo under its responsibility,” she added.
Earlier this week, Russia sent a humanitarian convoy to Ukraine of 280 trucks carrying about 2,000 tons of humanitarian aid, with 400 tons of grain, 100 tons of sugar, 62 tons of baby food, 54 tons of medication, 12,000 sleeping bags and 69 mobile electrical generators.
Russia proposed sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine’s eastern regions under the auspice of the ICRC last week. A number of Western countries, including the United States, Britain and Germany, called the initiative into question, saying the aid would be “unjustified and illegal” unless Russia secures Kiev’s consent.
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Top Ukraine rebel leader says troops training in Russia
Photo
12:25pm EDT
By Thomas Grove
DONETSK Ukraine (Reuters) - Ukrainian rebels are receiving new military equipment and troops trained in Russia, and will launch a major counter-offensive against government forces, a separatist leader said in a video released on Saturday.
The four-month conflict in eastern Ukraine has reached a critical phase, with Kiev and Western governments watching nervously to see if Russia will intervene in support of the increasingly besieged rebels - an intention Moscow denies.
Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, said the rebels were in the process of receiving some 150 armored vehicles, including 30 tanks, and 1,200 fighters who he said had spent four months training in Russia.
"They are joining at the most crucial moment," he said in a video recorded on Friday. He did not specify where the vehicles would come from.
Moscow has come under heavy Western sanctions over its annexation of Ukraine's Crimea and accusations it is supporting separatists in east Ukraine with troops and funds. Russia denies the accusations.
Zakharchenko's comments came a day after Ukraine said it partially destroyed an armored column that had crossed the border from Russia. The report triggered a sell-off in global stocks, with markets fearful it could escalate the conflict into an open confrontation between Russia and Western-backed Ukraine.
But Moscow made no threat of retaliation, instead saying it was a "fantasy" that its armored vehicles had entered Ukraine. In Washington, the White House said it could not confirm that Russian vehicles had been attacked on Ukrainian soil.
The rebels, who have ceded ground to government forces in the past weeks, have been promising a counter-offensive for several days but have yet to launch one.
Ukrainian native Zakharchenko took over from Russian citizen Alexander Borodai last week and his combative comments will probably dash hopes that changes at the top of the rebel leadership might signal willingness to end hostilities.
A Reuters reporter in Donetsk, one of two rebel strongholds in the east, said the sound of explosions was audible in the city center.
A convoy of 280 Russian trucks carrying water, food and medicine remained about 20 km (12 miles) from the Ukrainian border, unmoved since Friday, and an official of the International Committee of the Red Cross was due to discuss its next movements with Russian and Ukrainian officials.
Russia says it is a purely humanitarian mission in support of civilians in areas hit by the conflict, but Ukraine is concerned it could serve as a Trojan Horse to infiltrate military supplies or create a pretext for armed intervention.
COUNTER-CLAIMS
The conflict has dragged relations between Russia and the West to their lowest point since the Cold War and set off a round of trade restrictions that are hurting struggling economies both in Russia and Europe.
The Finnish President, Sauli Niinisto, traveled to Kiev for talks with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, a day after meeting Russian President Vladimir Putin.
France said a meeting of Ukrainian, Russian, German and French foreign ministers scheduled in Berlin on Sunday could be a first step towards a peace summit.
The United Nations said this week that an estimated 2,086 people had died, with nearly 5,000 wounded.
A rebel Internet news outlet said on Saturday that separatist fighters had killed 30 members of a Ukrainian government battalion in fighting in Luhansk province, a rebel-held area of eastern Ukraine adjacent to the Russian border.
A Ukrainian military spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, contradicted the rebel assertions. He said three Ukrainian servicemen had been killed over the past 24 hours, and denied Kiev's forces were firing artillery on Donetsk.
In the past few hours Ukrainian security forces had spotted Russian drones and a helicopter crossing illegally into Ukraine's airspace, Lysenko told a news briefing.
MOMENTUM WITH THE ARMY
The momentum on the ground is with the Ukrainian forces, who have pushed the separatists out of large swathes of territory and nearly encircled them in Donetsk and Luhansk. Kiev says it now controls the road linking the two cities.
Russia says the Ukrainian offensive is causing a humanitarian catastrophe for the civilian population in the two cities. It accuses Kiev's forces of indiscriminately using heavy weapons in residential areas, an allegation Ukraine denies.
In the past seven days, three of the most senior rebel leaders have been removed from their posts, pointing to mounting disagreement over how to turn the tide of the fighting back in their favor.
Lysenko, the Ukrainian military spokesman, said he had reports of rebel fighters abandoning their posts in Luhansk, and preparing to leave Donetsk and seek safe haven in Russia.
"A mood of panic is spreading and rebels are trying to leave through the small gaps that remain," he said.
In Donetsk, the red, blue and black flag of separatists was flying on a pole in front of the headquarters. Ten people armed with Kalashnikov rifles were standing on guard outside the main entrance in mismatched camouflage.
"Why should we flee? People are still coming and filling our ranks. Those who have lost their houses to Ukrainian shelling, what else would they do but fight back?," said a fighter who gave his name as Communist.
(Additional reporting by Natalia Zinets and Alessandra Prentice in Kiev and Jason Bush in Moscow; writing by Christian Lowe and Dmitry Zhdannikov; editing by Mark Trevelyan)
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Equation

Lieutenant General
that would be quite significant if it is true. the siege of donetsk will be something like moscow. if DPR can fend off the Ukrainian army until winter, the additional strain on logistics as a result of cold weather might preclude any major offensive until early next year. but of course perpetuating the conflict in this manner without any effort at reconciliation will not sit well with the ukrainian public and even the european community. I think the rebels have the best chance if they focus on delaying ukrainian advance as much as possible, that means they should not be looking for any decisive battles.

Perhaps, but what about the poor people still living in that city under siege? In the long run they'll be cut off from water and electricity and basic needs. They'll become refugees in their own home.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Perhaps, but what about the poor people still living in that city under siege? In the long run they'll be cut off from water and electricity and basic needs. They'll become refugees in their own home.

i was just skyping with an acquaintance who lives in donetsk. where she lives, near downtown donetsk, apparently it is still relatively safe, but with sporadic shells landing in the vicinity. the suburbs are quite dangerous since that is where bulk of the fighting is currently taking place. another focal point of the conflict in this sector is the train station and airport nearby. the train station is located in the north end of the city. there is a shortage of material but not severe and electricity and water are still running at least in the downtown area. however after 8 o'clock the city is a ghost town. militants who occupy the city are obviously above the law, a few of them took over a very nice hotel in downtown donetsk and lived there...overall it doesnt sound like a city i want to visit for my vacation.

but strategic considerations that are implicated in the current conflict gives little attention to the well being of civilians caught in the fighting. if anybody really cared about them at all the fighting would not have resumed from that ill-fated ceasefire.
 
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