Crisis in the Ukraine

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Dannhill

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I counted 17 KIA + few MIA , let's round that at 20 . Others are captured and/or wounded . As far as I understand Russian, all of them are professional (contract) soldiers except maybe in one case . Most of them from airborne assault troops . Were they really volunteers (went to fight instead of going to the beach) , or were they ordered to go to Ukraine ? Hard to tell, but overall there are no "hundreds of dead" and certainly no proof for massive intervention portrayed by some media.

What really happened is that Moscow provided logistics and some of the weapons for the rebels , plus there were volunteers , mercenaries and some special forces on their side. Nobody really denied that , as nobody denied presence of volunteers, mercenaries and "advisors" from Western countries on Ukrainian side . Usual proxy war.


There are many reports of western mercenaries on Kiev's side, including Polish and US Academi people. Are they sponsored by NATO? One can also make that kind of conjecture. And that documented Swedish sniper too so can I say that Sweden has declared war on eastern Ukraine "terrorists"? Add the influx of all kinds of European far right "volunteers" extremists.

Pretty clear that only one side is wrong and the other side is good. The Russians going to fight against Kiev forces have often stated that it's a war against fascism. But we all know there are no fascists on Kiev side right? Only weird Buddhist swastika symbols.

Reports of foreign mercenaries on Kiev side

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Russians in Ukraine

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Foreign fighters in Ukraine

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It really doesn't makes sense that Putin would put his soldiers into official harms way without exercising direct military command over all separatist forces in east Ukraine. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this section of the forum are already aware of how fractured command is of those forces so why the continued insistence that Putin would send his soldiers into that kind of situation where separatists "battalions" and units are working largely on their own? Even today, those unit commanders refused to combine all their forces but preferred a "war council" instead. Political opportunists attempting to seize control of the situation have been exposed.

Because it suits a certain POV despite the many small Inconvenient Truths?

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I counted 17 KIA + few MIA , let's round that at 20 . Others are captured and/or wounded . As far as I understand Russian, all of them are professional (contract) soldiers except maybe in one case . Most of them from airborne assault troops . Were they really volunteers (went to fight instead of going to the beach) , or were they ordered to go to Ukraine ? Hard to tell, but overall there are no "hundreds of dead" and certainly no proof for massive intervention portrayed by some media.

What really happened is that Moscow provided logistics and some of the weapons for the rebels , plus there were volunteers , mercenaries and some special forces on their side. Nobody really denied that , as nobody denied presence of volunteers, mercenaries and "advisors" from Western countries on Ukrainian side . Usual proxy war.

the Russian radio station
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this evening reported (
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) six Active Duty Russian Soldiers KIA around Debaltsevo (Дебальцево) one week ago (on September 17).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a server collecting data about Russian Soldiers and Mercenaries fighting in Ukraine:
lostivan.com
27 pages, 18 names on each (I assume -- I just randomly chose two of them, like now:
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) + 4 on the last page = 490
 

SampanViking

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With so many reporters and so many hours of video footage being shot during this conflict, I have been waiting for the shift from reportage to documentary, retrospective and of course analysis.

This video is typical of a recent crop that marks the start of this process, by looking at events and the characters on a short area of the front near Donetsk.
(Kudos to the poster on Liveleak who translated and subtitled the whole half hour)

[video=youtube_share;wCvWIDU0JNc]http://youtu.be/wCvWIDU0JNc[/video]
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
The story that western media will never tell because that will expose their bareface hypocrisy. Yet a story that the early American revolutionaries fighting against an oppressive British colonial govt will clearly identify with. Fighting for their homes and the families first before any ideal of country.

Yes, we all saw all those well equipped Russian Spetnaz and their T-90 tanks. Putin has no shame!

With so many reporters and so many hours of video footage being shot during this conflict, I have been waiting for the shift from reportage to documentary, retrospective and of course analysis.

This video is typical of a recent crop that marks the start of this process, by looking at events and the characters on a short area of the front near Donetsk.
(Kudos to the poster on Liveleak who translated and subtitled the whole half hour)

[video=youtube_share;wCvWIDU0JNc]http://youtu.be/wCvWIDU0JNc[/video]
 

delft

Brigadier
A fragment from Washington Post's
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Russia’s actions in Ukraine challenge this post-war order. Here are the facts. After the people of Ukraine mobilized popular protests and calls for reform, their corrupt President fled. Against the will of the government in Kiev, Crimea was annexed. Russia poured arms into Eastern Ukraine, fueling violent separatists and a conflict that has killed thousands. When a civilian airliner was shot down from areas that these proxies controlled, they refused to allow access to the crash for days.
Why these blatant lies? A Buk launch can be heard to a distance of ten kilometers and seen over a similar distance. As no one saw or heard a launch there was no launch. And while local people collected the bodies and body parts of the victims and stored them in a refrigerated train monitors from OCSE, journalists, representatives of the Malaysian authorities and even family members of the victims roamed over the crash site, the Dutch people sent to that site were kept in Kiev by the regime "because it was to dangerous".
 
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Dannhill

Junior Member
And the Malaysians didn't work with Kiev and so they were on site once they hit the ground.
I have many links that refutes what Obama said about the unhelpfulness of the separatists at the crash site.

Also, US was very proud they got their version of Ukraine after investing US$5 billion.

But the Big Lie is good as the End justify the means.

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"Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine."

And Saker has something to add to Putin's amongst the Top 3 Evils in the world rant.

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A fragment from Washington Post's
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Why these blatant lies? A Buk launch can be heard to a distance of ten kilometers and seen over a similar distance. As no one saw or heard a launch there was no launch. And while local people collected the bodies and body parts of the victims and stored them in a refrigirated train monitors from OCSE, journalists, representatives of the Malaysian authorities and even family members of the victims roamed over the crash site, the Dutch people sent to that site were kept in Kiev by the regime "because it was to dangerous".
 
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thunderchief

Senior Member
the Russian radio station
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this evening reported (
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) six Active Duty Russian Soldiers KIA around Debaltsevo (Дебальцево) one week ago (on September 17).

Actually, they just reported that some Ukrainian website reported death of six Russian soldiers . No names or anything else, so it is hard to verify .

a server collecting data about Russian Soldiers and Mercenaries fighting in Ukraine:
lostivan.com
27 pages, 18 names on each (I assume -- I just randomly chose two of them, like now:
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) + 4 on the last page = 490

Very dubious site (lost Ivan :D ) . They have just pics and names, probably taken from Russian social networks .
 

delft

Brigadier
Ambassador Bhadrakumar on the developments wrt Ukraine and also Syria:
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West beats retreat in Ukraine



Considering the huge lift that the White House gave last week to the visit by the Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko — ‘rare honor’ of addressing a joint session of the US Congress, et al — one would have thought the Barack Obama administration was getting into a heightened mood of belligerence vis-a-vis Russia. But a close reading of President Obama’s remarks after the bilateral meeting with Poroshenko last Thursday in Washington creates doubts in the mind.
Obama is a smart politician who can make a retreat appear a victory. He’s done it in Afghanistan. Is he doing it in Ukraine? Consider the following. Obama who poured scorn at the Minsk dialogue has now become its votary.
He is also advocating that Ukraine should have “good relations with all of its neighbors, both east and west,” and he recommends that Ukraine should continue its strong economic links and people-to-people relations with Russia. This is vintage Obama.
Are we seeing the signs of Obama all but counseling Poroshenko to sort out issues directly with Moscow? It seems so. On returning to Kiev, Poroshenko disclosed today that US will only supply “non-lethal” military items to Ukraine, which of course falls far short of his wish list.
And, as for economic assistance, White House agreed to give the princely amount of $50 million to help Poroshenko see through the year 2015. It’s rather tragi-comic, coming at a time when according to the IMF, UKraine needs around $19 billion next year, if the civil war continues, by way of financial assistance to survive through next year, on top of the global bailout program for Ukraine.
Meanwhile, the IMF has revised its own estimate six months earlier and now says a staggering bailout of $55 billion is needed as external financing for Ukraine. Experts forecast that this figure could eventually turn out to be somewhere closer to $100 billion than $55 billion. .
It’s a macabre joke — handing out a measly amount of $50 million after egging on Ukraine to go to war with Russia. Where is the remaining $18450 million to come from to see Ukraine through next year?
Well, from Europe, where else? And who will pay from Europe? Not Poland, not Lithuania, not Estonia. It has to come from ‘Old Europe’. In essence, Germany has to loosen the purse strings. Chancellor Angela Merkel must be hopping mad.
Contrary to earlier estimates, Ukraine’s economy’s contraction this year could turn out to be in double digits. All this may go a long way to explain certain intriguing developments relating to Ukraine in the recent weeks: a) European Union’s summary decision to consign its hurriedly-signed Association Agreement with Ukraine in the freezer at least until end-2015; b) the robust EU backing for the Minsk accord between Kiev and the separatists in southeastern Ukraine; c) the top secret meeting between the foreign ministers of France, Germany and Russia on the sidelines of the recent international conference in Paris regarding the Islamic State; d) NATO’s belated acknowledgment that Russia has pulled troops back from Ukraine border; and, e) meeting between the foreign ministers of Russia and US in New York later today.
Suffice to say, Russia’s President Vladimir Putin may be pulling off a major diplomatic victory in getting the West to recognize that Moscow has legitimate interests in Ukraine. The West has no option but to accept that Ukraine’s economy is connected to Moscow with an umbilical cord and without whole-heatred Russian cooperation, it cannot be salvaged.
In retrospect, Moscow did well to ignore the EU’s latest round of sanctions announced three weeks ago. The signs are already there that Poroshenko is eyeing Putin as, perhaps, his most consequential interlocutor.
Concurrently, Washington too should begin to realize that engaging Moscow is becoming a necessity for effectively mobilizing an international campaign against the Islamic State. It could be a sign of the way the wind is turning direction that the former British defence secretary and Conservative MP, Liam Fox today explicitly cautioned Europe and the US against making threats against Russia over Ukraine.
Fox said, “I think it’s very important not to pretend that you [West] can or will do things that you clearly won’t. Making false threats, I think, is a big problem. We have to look at different ways of dealing with the Ukrainian situation.” Bravo !

Don’t be surprised, therefore, if one of these days Putin comes to the aid of Obama once again in Syria. Russia can help Obama legitimize the international campaign against the islamic State by getting a UN Security Council mandate for it; Russia can be helpful in the US’ dealing (or the lack of it) with Syria’s President Bashar Al-Assad. Make mo mistake, Russia’s stance (here, here and here) on the Islamic State threat is unequivocal and broadly supportive of the US-led international campaign.
Russia’s only caveat is that the US operations in Syria should have the concurrence of the Syrian government and/or should have a UN mandate, but then, what stops Obama from seeking a UN mandate is also the apprehension that Moscow may not cooperate.
Quite possibly, the ice will be broken regarding Syria today at the meeting between Sergey Lavrov and John Kerry in New York. The New Cold war, which started with a bang, might be ending with a whimper.

Posted in Diplomacy, Politics.

Tagged with New Cold War, Ukraine's crisis, Vladimir Putin.

By M K Bhadrakumar – September 24, 2014
It would have been difficult to pay the huge bills of Ukraine even without also paying for the IS war. The best way is probably to agree that Poroshenko is responsible for the shooting down of MH17.
 

SampanViking

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Very good article Delft

I note the same sense of background drift and this resonates with Yatsenyuk's speech today almost begging the West to keep the sanctions against Russia until not only the Donbass but also the Crimea is recovered.

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Compare this to what Poroshenko is saying
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It chimes with something that has been in the back of my mind over the last couple of weeks. Namely, in various halls of power in the Capitals of certain major nations, people had previously promised to deliver fantastic results with respect to Russia and Putin.
They have clearly failed, and in games of this magnitude; played at this level, failure is not considered an option.

I can think of several high profile careers which are about to crash and burn in the not to distant future.
 
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