Crisis in the Ukraine

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Dannhill

Junior Member
Yes it's also good PR for the rest of the Ukrainians in the west. Of course feeding and guarding POWs will tie up the resources of these militiamen who are needed on the front lines desperately.

Separately I saw a video claiming to show captured militiamen executed and buried in a shallow grave which was unearthed.
If true, sad that war has descended to such levels of brother killing brother.

That's good and is not a surprise for me to see why as well. The Rebels are under a tight budget and supplies for its own forces already. Keeping POWs requires more men to guard them and not to mention feeding them as well. Releasing the POWs is a quicker and easier way to ease the strain and responsibility on keeping them alive and healthy.
 

Sputnik

New Member
That missile shown in the last minute: did I see rudders at the end of it? What type of missile is it?

An R-17 tactical ballistic missile?
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The lecture from the separatist commander is more interesting. They let these captured Kiev soldiers go homr without doing a prisoner exchange.

Good for a change to see live Kiev soldiers who get to go home to their families instead of being mass buried in unmarked graves by the side of the roads and listed as MIA.

9M79 missile - TOCHKA-U SS-21 SCARAB

I understand there is work on the coast, probably on extending the port, seeing the concrete objects.
Do I translate correctly that someone painted on one of them "No War"?

Yes нет войне(no war)
 

Janiz

Senior Member
One of the provocations; which has been fully recorded during the conflict, has been the constant shelling of Russian territory from the Ukraine.
Source? I only remember Ukrainian soldeirs who were pissed that they couldn't return shelling from the opposite side of the border when it happened.
 
...

Finally, I keep reading the question, mainly (but not exclusively) from US citizens, how exactly could a ragtag, drunken, pot bellied, local militia defeat the National Ukrainian army? To this I reply: in exactly the same way as a bunch of ragtag yankee doodle rebels managed to defeat the British Empire some two hundred and forty years ago.

first I thought I'd let it go, but then I realized this was a response to my post, so ... I assumed this analogy to be accurate ... and checked on the US War of Independence ... and if your analogy was accurate, we should be probably in the phase described after clicking at:
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and the first sentence of the second paragraph of that chapter would be now:

In Kiev President Poroshenko gave up all hope of subduing Separatists by more armies, while Ukraine had a European Union to join. "It was a joke", he said, "to think of keeping Mariupol". There was no hope of recovering Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts. But the President was still determined "never to acknowledge the independence of the Novorussians, and to punish their contumacy by the indefinite prolongation of a war which promised to be eternal".

LOL!
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
This militia site claimed they received information that Kiev will terminate the ceasefire around 9 Sept after the exchange of prisoners. Kiev renewed offensive will be at Volnovakha and Mariupol. Claims in Odessa now unloading of NATO equipment, military experts and mercenaries.

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Dannhill

Junior Member
Juicy stuff indeed!! The world waits in eager anticipation for PM Najib to finger Putin or whoever is responsible for the deed.

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Malaysia ready to present MH17 crash evidence in court
Malaysia has stated that its intelligence reports on the MH17 flight crash are “pretty conclusive” and they are now preparing physical evidence to show in court. "First of all, we do have the intelligence reports [on] what happened to MH17 and the reports are pretty conclusive," said Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak at a news conference with Australian premier Tony Abbott on his first official visit to Malaysia. The preliminary report on the crash is due on Tuesday.

And here's another report:

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Bangkok Post weighs in with their version:

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I think there is a whole area of story here just waiting to be told.

I think it became very clear very early on, that so much of the actions of the Maidan Installed Government were designed to provoke Russia into a Georgia style intervention and for reasons already stated. I think that it is also safe to assume, that given that, on no account was Putin going to allow that to happen, except in the final resort and then it would have been the full monty, as Russia would have had nothing else to lose.

There is a huge difference between Individual regular servicemen volunteering (even being given extended leave to do so) and entire formations crossing the border under orders for combat operations. For all the sound and fury, I seriously doubt that has happened, as to do so, would undermine the position Putin has been determined to maintain and a company would sink it, just as sure as would a Full Army Group.

My deep suspicion is also that one of the reasons why the Novorossiyans were able to turn the tide against the odds, is because the primary objective of the senior command of Ukrainian forces was to provoke the Russian Federation, rather than simply defeat a rebel militia. Due to that, almost insane operational decisions were made in a failed gambit that has cost and will continue to cost them dear.

One of the provocations; which has been fully recorded during the conflict, has been the constant shelling of Russian territory from the Ukraine. Russia declared that they would fire back at offending units, back in June/July and I have no doubt that they have done. It would however, need a very high level of proof to promote those actions to support the accusations of direct fire support from across the border, which have previously been made.

Finally, I keep reading the question, mainly (but not exclusively) from US citizens, how exactly could a ragtag, drunken, pot bellied, local militia defeat the National Ukrainian army? To this I reply: in exactly the same way as a bunch of ragtag yankee doodle rebels managed to defeat the British Empire some two hundred and forty years ago.

I guess I really shouldn't be surprised that a loyal subject of Bonny King George, would equate the American Revolutionary's, scholars and patriots each one, fighting for freedom and liberty for all, with the Russian separatists fighting to re-enter the former soviet union under the kind and gracious leadership of Prince Vlad the First!

You might want to read the US constitution, and the true genius of our founding Fathers would be apparent, they fought and died for "freedom", and these United States continue to benefit from their wisdom and sacrifice...Godly men of valor, they paid for their "independence" and mine, they are true Patriots and Heroes!

the Ukrainians fighting to protect and preserve their own independence would understand, and that's what is important here, freemen, fighting for their own freedom, and trying to preserve theirs, and their childrens liberty, continue to be a noble and worthwhile pastime. I stand with them, and gladly so. Now I'm going to go to work, brat.
 
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SampanViking

The Capitalist
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This militia site claimed they received information that Kiev will terminate the ceasefire around 9 Sept after the exchange of prisoners. Kiev renewed offensive will be at Volnovakha and Mariupol. Claims in Odessa now unloading of NATO equipment, military experts and mercenaries.

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I suspect that is just a little alarmist.

I personally believe that Poroshenko will be very reluctant to start the conflict, especially with an Parliamentary election scheduled for next month.

My guess is that he plans to dump the blame for the disastrous war on Yatsenyuk and the rest of the Maidan installed government. He will say that as the new President he was lumbered with a war that they started.
His plan no doubt is to highlight his electoral legitimacy in contrast to their lack of it and to use that and the war blame to achieve a majority for his own party.

Prepare for Maidan Mk3 as the cold shouldered extremists try to re-run their earlier tactics. Interested to see if Yats and Co respond by questioning Poroshenko's legitimacy, most likely on account of accusations of sell out and appeasement.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I think it became very clear very early on, that so much of the actions of the Maidan Installed Government were designed to provoke Russia into a Georgia style intervention

Not at all. The hand of friendship was offered to Putin. He batted it away because he didn't like the idea of Ukraine forging a path of its own choosing and on its own terms. That's why he annexed Crimea, and that's why he instigated the rebellion in eastern Ukraine. He wanted a divided, broken country that would be easier to manipulate or could be difficult for the EU/NATO to offer membership to.

Russia would have had nothing else to lose

Russia has plenty to lose, as increased European and American sanctions show. Every time someone said "they won't dare go further", they have done.

There is a huge difference between Individual regular servicemen volunteering

That is not what is happening. Why? Because they would be committing treason by taking their equipment with them. That large numbers of tanks, armoured vehicles and other equipment has been crossing the border shows this is happening at the Kremlin's direction - or, even worse, that someone unseen is pulling Putin's strings from within Russia (virtually impossible, but the only other explanation).

My deep suspicion is also that one of the reasons why the Novorossiyans were able to turn the tide against the odds, is because the primary objective of the senior command of Ukrainian forces was to provoke the Russian Federation

That makes no sense. You're suggesting the Ukrainian Armed Forces are trying their best to lose the war. If they lose, that's it. "Shady" forces in the democratic world aren't going to use it as an excuse to take over or start a conflict. The Ukrainians want to win, but have found it hard because Russia has stepped up support for the rebels.

has been the constant shelling of Russian territory from the Ukraine

I'm not sure it was independently confirmed, and in any event:

a) it happened a long, long time after the rebellion started;
b) I have not heard anything credible to suggest it was "constant"; and
c) Russia returned fire.

in exactly the same way as a bunch of ragtag yankee doodle rebels managed to defeat the British Empire some two hundred and forty years ago

Given the American rebels benefited hugely from French and other anti-British nations, you seem to be saying that the Russian government is directly the Ukrainian rebels.
 
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