Crisis in the Ukraine

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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Russian volunteer in Lugansk airport

[video=youtube;S4TfQmPT8-k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S4TfQmPT8-k[/video]

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Super Moderator
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Now an article which appeared early this morning at gazeta.ru caught my attention due to its title "Friday Decides About Peace", because it could be also translated as "Friday Decides The Fate Of The World", and it's indeed ominous as it mentions reasons (of either side) over which the peace talks might break down ...
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I also checked two pro-Ukrainian military like servers (unofficial!):
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and
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and the situation is worse (in this thread I perhaps should say better :) than I thought ... for example they both mention the retreat from Debaltsevo (Дебальцево) -- I know
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shows it :) -- they both say Mariupol may soon fall, and both criticize the fact that the Ukrainian forces had not been able to mount any counter-strike(s) during last 10 days in a reaction to, well, you know what

SampanViking, your next prediction please:

You flatter me Jura, but I think we are now in territory that deifies all attempts of prediction.
I will however say this:

I have always been of the opinion that the root of this whole crisis has been shadowy but powerful and quite sinister forces within the Western Alliance, which has been determined to pay back Putin for his derailing of military action against Syria last year.
The aim of the operation against him was intended to either humiliate him by forcing him to accept the loss of influence and facility in the region, or to force him to overtly intervene militarily.
The desire was to make him intervene as this would enable aforementioned forces to lobby fiercely for the reversal of multi hundred of billions worth of defence cuts from the US defence budget and pressure for increased military spending throughout other alliance members, while NATO (an organisation as bloated and inefficient as the EU, except with a few uniforms) is only too happy to have a Russian bogey man to ensure that the gravy train never reaches the end of the line.

With the signing of the Ceasefire and the start to moves for a diplomatic settlement, Putin has maintained his influence and facility, without needing to intervene with the Russian Military. This obviously is not what a lot of people want and they will now be working overtime to try and wreck it. Others of course will be determined to make it work.
Those for and those against do not divide crudely along national lines, or necessarily represent the views of the governing executive, nor do they even exist on one notional side or another, so we will now enter a very murky and dirty phase. NATO planned to meet in order to discuss actions against overt aggression, instead it found itself having to welcome through gritted teeth, the Putin peace plan. It was clear that the tone and agenda of the conference was set some time ago and that it was simply unable to adapt to the new reality and so has been made to look very foolish worldwide, talking sanctions and rapid reaction forces in Wales, while the real players talked peace in Minsk.

Nowhere I think will we see this more plainly than in the Ukraine itself. Poroshenko has signed up to the deal and put his authority and credibility behind it. Prime Minister Yatsenyuk however (Victoria Nulands personally appointed man in Kiev) has expressed his opposition.

In short, while their will be tensions on the now quiet battlefields of Novorossiya, the real fighting has now reverted back to Kiev, where all the trouble started.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
I have always been of the opinion that the root of this whole crisis has been shadowy but powerful and quite sinister forces within the Western Alliance, which has been determined to pay back Putin for his derailing of military action against Syria last year.
What do you know about Ukraine before stating what's the root of problems? The root of problems was fall (pretty violent) of pro-Russia Ukrainian government. There was no going back as people are aware how people live just behind the western border so there's no surprise in that fact and it can't be reverted back to pro-Russian directon. Russia as a state had to 1) make it double sure that they'll be still able to operate within the Black Sea with the fleet and 2) that eastern oil fields sold to American/European companies will be secured as Russian. There was no anti-Russian propaganda earlier there and Ukrainians were OK with Russians living there and vice-versa. Russia had it's objectives and they were able to use all the money they had for that scenario at hand. And it prooved successful against the one of the poorest European states. Now the bridges between Ukraine and Russia are burnt. And probably it won't any better in the rest of my remaining life.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
You mean it took the Maiden overthrow for Ukrainians to see how westerners live? Now they see the bright shining beacon of Freedom with NATO and EU? The key to entering western paradise is thru joining NATO?

Wait till the cost of those IMF and WB loans kick in for your Ukraine to see how much better it is to take 19 billion loan from those western money lenders than the soft loan that Russia offered.

Last I read Ukraine was independent in 1991 and immediately opened their doors to the west. It didn't take place only in 2014.

Sorry but I can't help digging history and came up with this statement. It seems Ukraine owed it's unified existence to the old Soviet Union.

"In the Middle Ages, the area became a key center of East Slavic culture, as epitomized by the powerful state of Kievan Rus'. Following its fragmentation in the 13th century, the territory of the present day Ukraine was contested, ruled and divided by a variety of powers, including Lithuania, Poland, Austro-Hungary, and Russia. A Cossack republic emerged and prospered during the 17th and 18th centuries, but Ukraine remained otherwise divided until its consolidation into a Soviet republic in the 20th century, becoming an independent state only in 1991."

Being the above is from Wiki of course we know it's just all bullshit.

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Sorry further digging. Crimea was never a part of Ukraine but belonged to the old Russian empire and later tagged on to the Ukraine of the Soviet Union.

"After the Russian Revolution of 1917, Crimea became a republic within the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic in the USSR. In World War Two it was downgraded to the Crimean Oblast, and in 1954 the Crimean Oblast was transferred to Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic."

Is this another lie?

What do you know about Ukraine before stating what's the root of problems? The root of problems was fall (pretty violent) of pro-Russia Ukrainian government. There was no going back as people are aware how people live just behind the western border so there's no surprise in that fact and it can't be reverted back to pro-Russian directon. Russia as a state had to 1) make it double sure that they'll be still able to operate within the Black Sea with the fleet and 2) that eastern oil fields sold to American/European companies will be secured as Russian. There was no anti-Russian propaganda earlier there and Ukrainians were OK with Russians living there and vice-versa. Russia had it's objectives and they were able to use all the money they had for that scenario at hand. And it prooved successful against the one of the poorest European states. Now the bridges between Ukraine and Russia are burnt. And probably it won't any better in the rest of my remaining life.
 
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Dannhill

Junior Member
I am less optimistic than you in believing this truce has any hope at all. I agree with pretty much everything except the truce will hold. Poroshenko owe his position to the anti-Russian forces that you had mentioned. The recent threat by the Right Sector to turn their battalions on Kiev unless Kiev govt release all those Right Sector hooligans who committed crimes are released from detention saw who holds the real power behind the scene.

It's best for the separatists to consolidate their forces for a new Kiev punitive offensive is coming once they have a chance to restock and fill those new battalions. The key would be in watching what they do with their military, pumping more Western money into it or realising the Peace Dividend.

You flatter me Jura, but I think we are now in territory that deifies all attempts of prediction.
I will however say this:

I have always been of the opinion that the root of this whole crisis has been shadowy but powerful and quite sinister forces within the Western Alliance, which has been determined to pay back Putin for his derailing of military action against Syria last year.
The aim of the operation against him was intended to either humiliate him by forcing him to accept the loss of influence and facility in the region, or to force him to overtly intervene militarily.
The desire was to make him intervene as this would enable aforementioned forces to lobby fiercely for the reversal of multi hundred of billions worth of defence cuts from the US defence budget and pressure for increased military spending throughout other alliance members, while NATO (an organisation as bloated and inefficient as the EU, except with a few uniforms) is only too happy to have a Russian bogey man to ensure that the gravy train never reaches the end of the line.

With the signing of the Ceasefire and the start to moves for a diplomatic settlement, Putin has maintained his influence and facility, without needing to intervene with the Russian Military. This obviously is not what a lot of people want and they will now be working overtime to try and wreck it. Others of course will be determined to make it work.
Those for and those against do not divide crudely along national lines, or necessarily represent the views of the governing executive, nor do they even exist on one notional side or another, so we will now enter a very murky and dirty phase. NATO planned to meet in order to discuss actions against overt aggression, instead it found itself having to welcome through gritted teeth, the Putin peace plan. It was clear that the tone and agenda of the conference was set some time ago and that it was simply unable to adapt to the new reality and so has been made to look very foolish worldwide, talking sanctions and rapid reaction forces in Wales, while the real players talked peace in Minsk.

Nowhere I think will we see this more plainly than in the Ukraine itself. Poroshenko has signed up to the deal and put his authority and credibility behind it. Prime Minister Yatsenyuk however (Victoria Nulands personally appointed man in Kiev) has expressed his opposition.

In short, while their will be tensions on the now quiet battlefields of Novorossiya, the real fighting has now reverted back to Kiev, where all the trouble started.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
What do you know about Ukraine before stating what's the root of problems? The root of problems was fall (pretty violent) of pro-Russia Ukrainian government. There was no going back as people are aware how people live just behind the western border so there's no surprise in that fact and it can't be reverted back to pro-Russian directon. Russia as a state had to 1) make it double sure that they'll be still able to operate within the Black Sea with the fleet and 2) that eastern oil fields sold to American/European companies will be secured as Russian. There was no anti-Russian propaganda earlier there and Ukrainians were OK with Russians living there and vice-versa. Russia had it's objectives and they were able to use all the money they had for that scenario at hand. And it prooved successful against the one of the poorest European states. Now the bridges between Ukraine and Russia are burnt. And probably it won't any better in the rest of my remaining life.

Thank you Janiz for a succinct and chronological summary of the true genesis of this little "set-to". That Russian "advisors" have fought all along in numbers beside the separatists is undeniable. Mr. Putin's distinctive fingerprints have been all over this from the beginning and there is little doubt he has been working faithfully to recover the important pieces of the former Soviet Union, and I can't say I blame him, he's "shrewd", "calculating", and "motivated", but I'm sure that Barack and Michelle have crossed him off their Christmas list, well he'll probably get "switches and toilet paper"???????

Oil Fields ======Check
Black Sea Ports== Check

"BINGO"

Oh and like a good sailor----"Batten down the Hatches, put on your Gloucestermans Oil Slicker, and man the helm, steady as she goes!
 
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