Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

vesicles

Colonel
For the longest time I read that Sinovac was the only one that was being peer reviewed and published in the Lancet. Now they say none of the Chinese vaccines have been peer reviewed.
None of the Chinese vaccines' phase 3 clinical trial data have been published in peer reviewed journals. The one in Lancet is about their phase 1/2 trials. We are still waiting for their phase 3 trial data...

Please see below the officially published Pfizer phase 3 data:
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This one is for Moderna:
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This one is for the one-dose AstraZenaca:
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vesicles

Colonel
I'm no expert so I'm only going by what "experts" say. I read early on that Sinovac was the only one that was being peer reviewed. It was from the US media. Sanjay Gupta of CNN who doesn't seem to be political in his reporting was the most recent person maybe less than a month ago who said to viewers like he was reminding people that the data coming out is still from the companies producing these vaccines so there's room for skepticism if the data is accurate. Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx were early seen as being trustworthy but then you can see later political pressure being applied where they had to find a middle of road answer for questions they were being asked. Like I said, I'm no expert but I can see pressure and influence being applied to say certain things meaning there's some measure of manipulation of the facts going on.
I believe Dr. Gupta was referring to the difference between clinical trials (typically conducted by the companies themselves) and real-world data collected by countries currently administering the vaccines to the general public. And he's more specifically referring to the real-world data coming out of Israel.

I don't think he's saying that the clinical trial data given by the companies themselves are less trustworthy. Not at all. He's simply pointing out a shortcoming of any clinical trials. In any clinical trials, no matter how careful you choose your subjects, you will have some kind of bias simply because you are limited by the size of your pool. Although the COVID vaccine trials conducted by Pfizer and Moderna each contained about 30,000 - 40,000 people, this is nothing compared with millions/billions of people in the real world. You inherently introduce some kind of bias. This is expected of any kind of clinical trials. This is why the Israeli data are so important and so exciting.

With that being said, we cannot deny the significance and legitimacy of these clinical trials. Especially when they have been scrutinized by peers and officially published, they carry so much weight. They provide invaluable information.
 
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vesicles

Colonel
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Oh ho ho! Just as my linked tweet showed, they are falling back to 'WHO is in bed with China'. Who knew!

Even anti-China All-Star Huang Yanzhong gets another celebrity appearance in the article!

View attachment 68590View attachment 68591View attachment 68592
Well, everyone in the world knew the list of Western experts that would go to Wuhan a few weeks. The background and credentials of these experts have all been open. Everyone knew about it. Why didn't anyone question and worry about any of the experts with a potential problem of "in bed with China" back then? No one said a word and everyone seemed hopeful that "Yes! we will find the truth once for all!". Then when the experts came out with their conclusion that they didn't like, "OMG! they are in bed with China!"
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
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Oh dear
My own feeling from reading comments on news articles.
I think most rational people no longer blame China. Anyone who posseses any amount of logical/critical thinking skill can see the following:

1. 100's of 1000's dead in America and still dying. China is relatively normal now. It doesn't really add up that China leaked it/hid it/whatever.

2. It would be extremely difficult to cover up a comparable number of deaths/population with such a huge population.

The problem is this. How many people are actually logical/rational?
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
I am honestly very pessimistic about this aspect... Some of my own family, who have been highly educated and had been thought (at least by me) to be logical and rational, still believe the nonsense... The world may be ending soon, based on how many stupid and crazy people are out there...
I don't know if I posted this before.
Back when Obama was first elected 2008, Sarah Palin was this ridiculous side show that no one took seriously. Then she spawned the "Tea Party" that everyone thought was some fringe thing. Then Donald Trump gets elected, and no one knows how exactly that happened. So at some point, half of the country has gone down some rabbit hole and I don't think anyone is sure how that happened.

If we study history, sometimes we read about some utterly stupid things that happened and think "How could people be so dumb?". Think like Great Leap Forward, or all of World War I. I think this is just one of those times.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
I am honestly very pessimistic about this aspect... Some of my own family, who have been highly educated and had been thought (at least by me) to be logical and rational, still believe the nonsense... The world may be ending soon, based on how many stupid and crazy people are out there...
My dad is in China and a lot of his professor colleagues are anti-vax. It's ridiculous.
 

KYli

Brigadier
I blame the media and internet for spreading stupidity and conspiracy theories throughout the world. Western media were so good as spreading misinformation that these kinds of nonsense finally came back to bite them such as covid and face masks. Russia sensed this weakness and explored it to the maximum extent. Now even the Chinese media were forced to occasionally use conspiracy theories to fight conspiracy theories. Western media and politicians instead of learning their lesson, they double down with the genocide accusations nonsense.

In addition, the elites in the West have lost touch with the ordinary people. These elites just don't know how to fix the inequality and poverty or feel it is too costly for them. So they restore to blaming China. China is just such an easy target so they blame everything on China.

It is funny when NYT tried to publish a somewhat more positive article about China's success in containing the covid and got attacked from the left and the right for doing so. Most common response is China can't be trusted. Millions of Chinese would have dead nobody would have known.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
None of the Chinese vaccines' phase 3 clinical trial data have been published in peer reviewed journals. The one in Lancet is about their phase 1/2 trials. We are still waiting for their phase 3 trial data...
Please see below the officially published Pfizer phase 3 data:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This one is for Moderna:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This one is for the one-dose AstraZenaca:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
From the articles, it seems that both Pfizer and Moderna's phase 3 data are incomplete, partial and not final. I think it is premature and misleading to publish report on partial data. The articles actually further convinces me that the western companies are rushing for business purpose, while their media and government counterparts are doing so for propaganda purpose.

Excerption from Pfizer article:
Here, we report safety and efficacy findings from the phase 2/3 part of a global phase 1/2/3 trial evaluating the safety, immunogenicity, and efficacy of 30 μg of BNT162b2 in preventing Covid-19 in persons 16 years of age or older. This data set and these trial results are the basis for an application for emergency use authorization.
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Collection of phase 2/3 data on vaccine immunogenicity and the durability of the immune response to immunization is ongoing, and those data are not reported here.

Excerption from Moderna article:
The Coronavirus Efficacy (COVE) phase 3 trial was launched in late July 2020 to assess the safety and efficacy of the mRNA-1273 vaccine in preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection. An independent data and safety monitoring board determined that the vaccine met the prespecified efficacy criteria at the first interim analysis. We report the primary analysis results of this ongoing pivotal phase 3 trial.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
I'm working on something even more serious. Cancer! Once we pass the "annoyance" of COVID-19 (yes, it is an annoyance), we will need to get back to the actual life-threatening matters, like solving cancer.
Wow , any specific cancers? anway I wish you much success in your endeavors.
 
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