Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

[KYli]

What was even the rationale for separating children from their parents? What could those morons imagined that by force separation the inevitable trauma inflicted on both the parents, and children were acceptable? And that by such action it'll cause anger from their domestic constituencies as well as providing ample materiale to China's foreign enemies anti-China propaganda.

Also, one would think or assume that leaders from major important cities in China have prepared, applied every lessons learned from the Wuhan situation in order to prevent, buttress the effectiveness of their own leadership prowess not to mention the effectiveness of the very system their legitimacy is based upon. Bleeping idiots. Patronage without competency what a potent combo.

Actually, it is a common practice to separate parents and children when the parents are not infected. If you went back from the beginning, many countries have reports of children isolated alone. Even Hong Kong has the same issue recently but relented quickly after complains. There is a medical reason to it especially when your medical resources are stretched thin.

However, it is not emotional acceptable especially for very young children. Many parents would find it unacceptable and cruel.

In addition, separating children from parents even temporary have become a political issue in the West that the media just won't approve of it. It has become a political issue after Trump administration weaponized the separation of children and parents in order to deter illegal immigrants.

 

[Rettam Stacf]

Is this the first time Shanghai is under lock down since the beginning of the pandemic ?

 

[solarz]

What was even the rationale for separating children from their parents? What could those morons imagined that by force separation the inevitable trauma inflicted on both the parents, and children were acceptable? And that by such action it'll cause anger from their domestic constituencies as well as providing ample materiale to China's foreign enemies anti-China propaganda.

Also, one would think or assume that leaders from major important cities in China have prepared, applied every lessons learned from the Wuhan situation in order to prevent, buttress the effectiveness of their own leadership prowess not to mention the effectiveness of the very system their legitimacy is based upon. Bleeping idiots. Patronage without competency what a potent combo.

Actually, it is a common practice to separate parents and children when the parents are not infected. If you went back from the beginning, many countries have reports of children isolated alone. Even Hong Kong has the same issue recently but relented quickly after complains. There is a medical reason to it especially when your medical resources are stretched thin.

However, it is not emotional acceptable especially for very young children. Many parents would find it unacceptable and cruel.

In addition, separating children from parents even temporary have become a political issue in the West that the media just won't approve of it. It has become a political issue after Trump administration weaponized the separation of children and parents in order to deter illegal immigrants.

It depends entirely on how well the children are cared for during their time in quarantine. From what I've heard, most parents (in China) are not too concerned about it.

 

[KYli]

Is this the first time Shanghai is under lock down since the beginning of the pandemic ?

It is the first time since pandemic that Shanghai has a lock down. Previously, it is more of stay at home order and social distancing.

It depends entirely on how well the children are cared for during their time in quarantine. From what I've heard, most parents (in China) are not too concerned about it.

That is what I have heard too.

 

[Coalescence]

The more mask, the more vaccine, the more lockdown, the more social distancing, the more transmissible. Charles Darwin discovered natural selection, survival of the fittest, only the most transmissible virus survive such drastic containment measures.

So what you're saying is, that China is trying to breed a super variant? Bioweapon program theory confirmed.

 

[tokenanalyst]

The more mask, the more vaccine, the more lockdown, the more social distancing, the more transmissible. Charles Darwin discovered natural selection, survival of the fittest, only the most transmissible virus survive such drastic containment measures.

It may be that Omicron's reduced lethality is an adaptation to human behavior due people taking more precautions (masks, fewer contacts, more social distancing) that has forced the virus to evolve to be more stealthy and less lethal to infect more people, there are also It should be noted that the vaccines have significantly reduced the lethality of the virus, but even in unvaccinated people, Omicron appear less lethal than the original and delta variants. You can hypothesize that China may be helping the world by breeding a much less lethal version of the virus.

Personally my biggest nightmare would be that because people lowering their guard that evolutionary pressure disappears and a variant as deadly as the original but as transmissible as omicron appears. Because there is no law in biology that says a virus must evolve to be less virulent or less lethal just by immunity alone.
I hope and pray that never happens.

 

[TheFoozyOne]

As a person from Shanghai, you don't even know Li Qiang has never been the mayor of Shanghai. I just find it strange.

Han Zheng was born in Shanghai and part of The Shanghai Clique. Of course, you find him more favorable. At that time, disproportionate resources were spent on Shanghai to cement it as China financial center.

As for Shanghai taking up all the flights and act as quarantine hub, I always find it unwise. Especially, Shanghai proactively took up the task to host Hong Kongers which is really unnecessary. If these decisions were made by Li Qiang, then he deserves the blame. Maybe Li Qiang gambled on Telsa and won big time in both economic and political points has emboldened him to take on unnecessary risks which might bring his downfall.

However, the Shanghai gang has dominated politics in Yangtze delta for decades. And the Chinese political structures have made it unlikely that Li Qiang to have say in everything. Blaming one person for the mess in Shanghai is unconvincing. It is not only one person to be blamed.

I just find it funny that people from Shanghai trying to pinpoint one person as scapegoat either the vice premier or Li Qiang. But not looking at it as some kind of systematic failures from top to bottom, from Shanghai medical advisors to media.

As angry as you are, people outside of Shanghai are even more angrily asking why Shanghai is never designated as a high risk area that resulted the virus spreading to 21 provinces, who came up with the precision approach, why there are no preparation whatsoever for the lock down, why Shanghai media can insult Xian and many other places pandemic performance and praise Shanghai as a shining example But are all quiet now. Why Shanghai refused helps from other provinces at the beginning, why there are no mass testing in Shanghai when other major cities all have such policy, why Shanghai pandemic policies are so different from other provinces such as no high risk area or different designation of asymptomatic cases.

Even if you wanted to blame Li Qiang, the most important question you need to ask why Shanghai as the most wealthy city could fail So badly. Even a third tier city in China has done a better job than Shanghai.

Playing the blame game is easy. Finding the right things to be blamed and fixed them are not.

In the end of the day, you have the right to be mad and angry and disappointed as the government has failed you.

The infuriating aspect of the mismanagement in Shanghai is that the negative feedback loop to correct the mistakes are basically only social media outcry. The individual feels powerless in front of the state, which feels like a machine strictly enforcing rules without considering the individual situation. Such a rigid government won’t be welcomed among the populace and goes against the “for the people” motto of the CCP.

If there is no punishment, reflection and correction from the central government, then there will be dissatisfaction among the populace, and Western media / anti-CCP elements will have new ammo against China.

It is also wild that third tier cities inland and in Guangdong and Guangxi have managed covid so far so well with their own lockdowns. But Shanghai is a clusterfuck even though it is a modern city and has a relatively clean (I think) government. Is it arrogance? Incompetence? Bureaucracy?

 

[KYli]

The infuriating aspect of the mismanagement in Shanghai is that the negative feedback loop to correct the mistakes are basically only social media outcry. The individual feels powerless in front of the state, which feels like a machine strictly enforcing rules without considering the individual situation. Such a rigid government won’t be welcomed among the populace and goes against the “for the people” motto of the CCP.

If there is no punishment, reflection and correction from the central government, then there will be dissatisfaction among the populace, and Western media / anti-CCP elements will have new ammo against China.

It is also wild that third tier cities inland and in Guangdong and Guangxi have managed covid so far so well with their own lockdowns. But Shanghai is a clusterfuck even though it is a modern city and has a relatively clean (I think) government. Is it arrogance? Incompetence? Bureaucracy?

That is individualism vs collectivism. For the people motto is more of collectivism motto from the CPC perspective.

The inflexibility of the management during pandemic is due to the fact even a single case got into the community, then the whole community would endorse another 2 weeks of lock down.

The government can't allow workers to bend the rules. So the only way is to fix the problems. However, the issue is the inability of Shanghai government to fix problems. For Shenzhen, it was able to mobilize volunteers through an incentive points system that would give people rights of permanent resident. For Shandong and other places, they mobilize CPC members to form community organizations to help keep order, distribute foods, and provide helps. I haven't seemed any of these are happening in Shanghai.

From what I have learned, Shanghai is years ahead of other major metropolis for providing services and probably can rival Hong Kong in the sense of ease of living. I think it is arrogance, incompetent, and bureaucracy that bought the downfall of Shanghai during this pandemic.

Let just takes Hong Kong for an example. I think there are a lot of similarity between Hong Kong and Shanghai.
1. Government medical advisors, government workers, and even individuals think that Omicron is just a cold. (Arrogance)
2. Airline loophole was informed by the central government expert team but never fixed.(Bureaucracy and business interests)
3. Previous central government built quarantine facilities were dismantled due to lack of use before the Omicron outbreak.(incompetent)
4. Loopholes and exemptions were created to keep expatriates and Western businesses happy.(Bureaucracy and business interests)
5. Mass testing capacity never ramped up. It has been only 100,000 tests per day and only got to 300,000 after the central government assistance. Compare with Shenzhen that can do mass testing in 3 days. (incompetent)
6. When there is an outbreak before the Chinese New Year, nothing is done to stop the spread. Everyone knew that it would be going to be a disaster. But business interests prevent the government from enacting any sort of new tough restrictions(Bureaucracy and business interests)(similarly, Shanghai was told to mass testing over two weeks before lock down but refused)
7. When the outbreak killed over 10,000 people, nobody got blamed.(Bureaucracy)
8. Doctors were not treating any elderly patients due to the surge but nobody seems to care. It took them two weeks to give the green light to allow Guangdong medical team to come over to help. Hong Kong didn't refuse helps like Shanghai but was prevented by the oppositions and medical interest groups(incompetent and bureaucracy)

 

[Tyler]

Ontario positivity rate up to 18.7 percent, total cases passed 1.2 million

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They should close all restaurants and reinstate the mask mandate.

 

[Bellum_Romanum]

The infuriating aspect of the mismanagement in Shanghai is that the negative feedback loop to correct the mistakes are basically only social media outcry. The individual feels powerless in front of the state, which feels like a machine strictly enforcing rules without considering the individual situation. Such a rigid government won’t be welcomed among the populace and goes against the “for the people” motto of the CCP.

If there is no punishment, reflection and correction from the central government, then there will be dissatisfaction among the populace, and Western media / anti-CCP elements will have new ammo against China.

It is also wild that third tier cities inland and in Guangdong and Guangxi have managed covid so far so well with their own lockdowns. But Shanghai is a clusterfuck even though it is a modern city and has a relatively clean (I think) government. Is it arrogance? Incompetence? Bureaucracy?

Arrogance, incompetence, dogmatic application

That is individualism vs collectivism. For the people motto is more of collectivism motto from the CPC perspective.

The inflexibility of the management during pandemic is due to the fact even a single case got into the community, then the whole community would endorse another 2 weeks of lock down.

The government can't allow workers to bend the rules. So the only way is to fix the problems. However, the issue is the inability of Shanghai government to fix problems. For Shenzhen, it was able to mobilize volunteers through an incentive points system that would give people rights of permanent resident. For Shandong and other places, they mobilize CPC members to form community organizations to help keep order, distribute foods, and provide helps. I haven't seemed any of these are happening in Shanghai.

From what I have learned, Shanghai is years ahead of other major metropolis for providing services and probably can rival Hong Kong in the sense of ease of living. I think it is arrogance, incompetent, and bureaucracy that bought the downfall of Shanghai during this pandemic.

Let just takes Hong Kong for an example. I think there are a lot of similarity between Hong Kong and Shanghai.
1. Government medical advisors, government workers, and even individuals think that Omicron is just a cold. (Arrogance)
2. Airline loophole was informed by the central government expert team but never fixed.(Bureaucracy and business interests)
3. Previous central government built quarantine facilities were dismantled due to lack of use before the Omicron outbreak.(incompetent)
4. Loopholes and exemptions were created to keep expatriates and Western businesses happy.(Bureaucracy and business interests)
5. Mass testing capacity never ramped up. It has been only 100,000 tests per day and only got to 300,000 after the central government assistance. Compare with Shenzhen that can do mass testing in 3 days. (incompetent)
6. When there is an outbreak before the Chinese New Year, nothing is done to stop the spread. Everyone knew that it would be going to be a disaster. But business interests prevent the government from enacting any sort of new tough restrictions(Bureaucracy and business interests)(similarly, Shanghai was told to mass testing over two weeks before lock down but refused)
7. When the outbreak killed over 10,000 people, nobody got blamed.(Bureaucracy)
8. Doctors were not treating any elderly patients due to the surge but nobody seems to care. It took them two weeks to give the green light to allow Guangdong medical team to come over to help. Hong Kong didn't refuse helps like Shanghai but was prevented by the oppositions and medical interest groups(incompetent and bureaucracy)

The outbreak of COVID-19 in Shanghai killed over 10,000? Did I understand this correctly?