Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

KYli

Brigadier
I don't see it as a problem for trying out its precision method. However, it has become a problem when Shanghai covid cases are spilling all over China. In addition, Shanghai isn't even designated as a high risk area when other places with much less cases would have already become a high risk area making other provinces difficult to request extra testing and quarantine.

Beside, many Shanghai's apartments have been sealed off for over two weeks already and with no end in sight of lifting the lock down. I don't see the economic costs would be any less.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Bad idea.
If he is vaccinated he should be fine, after all, that is what the vaccine is for. I haven't worn a face mask in over a year since I got vaccinated and I'm fine. I never tested positive despite being in close contact with several people when they had COVID and I'm someone who is immunocompromised.

Sure there are breakout cases but they tend to be mild or asymptomatic. At this stage of the game, the dominant variants are far less lethal, we have treatments for severe cases and everyone either has natural immunity or vaccines.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
My reading of Chinese characters is very limited and I'm too lazy to translate it.
Sorry it was late for me.

It was to answer this line of your comment: "That sounds ominously like following the lead of the Western countries."

Basically, Hu Xijin said that Shanghai has the resources, such as in public health and in the governments at street level, to try a new approach different than the "shock" style lockdown. If the new approach is proved not working, the city can go back to the “shock" style lockdown as did by Shenzhen and Xi'an, or even in Wuhan.

Successful or not, what Shanghai is learning will be valuable for other cities.

He specifically mentioned about the "political resources" that's unique to Shanghai. It allows the city to experiment on only locking down small pockets for 48 hours. I am reading this as that the city has got support from above for testing this approach.

He finished by saying "We are not ready at all for opening up and living with the virus. But it does not mean that we cannot explore better approaches to make dynamic zeroing less costly."
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
I don't see it as a problem for trying out its precision method. However, it has become a problem when Shanghai covid cases are spilling all over China. In addition, Shanghai isn't even designated as a high risk area when other places with much less cases would have already become a high risk area making other provinces difficult to request extra testing and quarantine.
In trying a new approach, it's expected to be clumsy to begin with. Hopefully the local authorities and public health staff are getting more precise. Shanghai might also have been complacent at the beginning of this Omicron wave.

Beside, many Shanghai's apartments have been sealed off for over two weeks already and with no end in sight of lifting the lock down. I don't see the economic costs would be any less.
If there are new cases uncovered in the neighbourhood of these apartments, the streets and blocks have to remain locked down until the spread stops. For these neighbourhoods, it is unforunately no difference than locking down the whole city.

At the same time, because those areas are sealed off, other parts of the city can remain open. This makes big differences, in particular in the business centers and industrial parks. If these offices and factories are all locked down, the rippling effect will go beyond Shanghai.
 

KYli

Brigadier
In trying a new approach, it's expected to be clumsy to begin with. Hopefully the local authorities and public health staff are getting more precise. Shanghai might also have been complacent at the beginning of this Omicron wave.
It isn't a new approach. Shanghai has employed the precision method for sometime now. Don't have a problem with them continuing this approach to contain Omicron. However, as more and more places got lock down, it just doesn't look like a precision approach anymore. In addition, by reporting most cases as asymptomatic, Shanghai has avoided being designated as a high risk area which is unfair to other provinces.
If there are new cases uncovered in the neighbourhood of these apartments, the streets and blocks have to remain locked down until the spread stops. For these neighbourhoods, it is unforunately no difference than locking down the whole city.

At the same time, because those areas are sealed off, other parts of the city can remain open. This makes big differences, in particular in the business centers and industrial parks. If these offices and factories are all locked down, the rippling effect will go beyond Shanghai.
I understand why they are doing it. However, Shenzhen had the same approach for over 2 months. It was unable to contain Omicron. Shenzhen was forced to give up and did a 7 days lock down to contain the virus. Shanghai has over 2000 cases per day now. It is at the breaking point of both medical resources and manpower to contain the virus.

I would dispute that keeping industrial parks open is doable even with lock down. Many cities keep industrial parks open as long as workers are confined to their plants and warehouses and tested regular until the lock down is lifted.
 

Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
I don't see it as a problem for trying out its precision method. However, it has become a problem when Shanghai covid cases are spilling all over China. In addition, Shanghai isn't even designated as a high risk area when other places with much less cases would have already become a high risk area making other provinces difficult to request extra testing and quarantine.

Beside, many Shanghai's apartments have been sealed off for over two weeks already and with no end in sight of lifting the lock down. I don't see the economic costs would be any less.
Just boost every body as they are doing all these testing.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
It isn't a new approach. Shanghai has employed the precision method for sometime now. Don't have a problem with them continuing this approach to contain Omicron. However, as more and more places got lock down, it just doesn't look like a precision approach anymore.
Maybe we have different expectations on how precise the precision method should be. Because there is no magic way to detect the infected. Any method has to be reactive and iterative. Being precise is therefore relative.

IIUC, the Shanghai method is a "parallized" version of the same methodology since Wuhan - test, trace, isolate then repeat. With this method, the working set consists of multiple small areas and tries to make them smaller in subsequent iterations. In the "traditional" approach, we have seen that the working set is a single area that is much larger to begin with, usually by a complete city district and can increase indiscriminately to the whole city eventually.

If the Shanghai approach is dubbed as a "precision method", we might call the traditional approach "brutal force". But this is all my educated guess based on the publicly available info.

In their daily press briefing, the local health authority reports how many new cases were found in "isolated populace (闭环隔离管控人员)" and how many were from the "risky populace (风险人群)". If the latter is getting smaller proportional to the former, the public health staff are closing in on the spreads. The turning point will be when the latter stops increasing.

Anyway, I still think that it's too early to call it failing. A new approach will need refining in practice. Omicron is also new. To me the criteria are: 1. no hospital capacity crunch; 2. the economic impact is decisively smaller. Now I think these are actually quite a high bar to reach. We will see.

In addition, by reporting most cases as asymptomatic, Shanghai has avoided being designated as a high risk area which is unfair to other provinces.
If Shanghai is hiding large number of cases as asymptomatic, it is a serious offense that must be stopped and punished. Or is this just a speculation by the netizens?

Even if their numbers are dubious comparing to the numbers of other cities, to give them the benefit of the doubt, could it be that Shanghai has been reporting its mild cases as asymptomatic? Because, under the new Covid guidance, asymptomatic and mild cases are treated the same and do not need to be hospitalized. But even in this case, the city should have clarified.

Anyway, unless there is credible source to prove otherwise, I choose to trust the published data for the moment. At the same time, yeah I am curious, too, about why Shanghai has so few symptomatic cases among so many infected.

I have no vested interest in defending the city. But I think it is not fair to talk about fairness without considering the pressure on Shanghai and its residents, not only in this Omicron wave but also since the beginning of the pandemic.

IIRC, Shanghai was the last major international traffic hub in mainland that fell victim to the virus. Guangzhou, Qingdao, Tianjin, Dalian, Xi'an and Zhengzhou all had outbreaks caused by imported cases before Shanghai.

Counting the daily imported cases released by NHC, we can see that the Shanghai has been under constant pressure. But it had not had major outbreak and spillover until this March. It cannot be just pure luck. This speaks in volume for how long Shanghai successfully protected the inland for its portion.

While the cities that have received the spillover cases from Shanghai might be justified to call out its blunder in this wave, we should not forget that the residents in Shanghai are bearing the burden when the city is trying to keep its business centers, factories and traffic hubs open, not only for Shanghai itself but also for all other cities that rely on Shanghai to keep their economy running.

I understand why they are doing it. However, Shenzhen had the same approach for over 2 months. It was unable to contain Omicron. Shenzhen was forced to give up and did a 7 days lock down to contain the virus. Shanghai has over 2000 cases per day now. It is at the breaking point of both medical resources and manpower to contain the virus.
Most of the 2000 cases are asymptomatic that do not need much care though. They do not actually add as much burden as the number sounds. Even if they were reported as symptomatic, they would be mild and treated same as asymptomatic. I don't believe Shanghai has the guts to leave moderate or severer cases untreated in makeshift facilities.

I am not familiar with Shenzhen and haven't paid as much attention to it. Too bad it didn't work out for them.

But if Shanghai still has the capacity, why stop the experiment half way? Sure the numbers have been increasing but the growth are not exponential meaning the spreads are being controlled. Will the spreads have gone out of control tomorrow? I think it is unlikely.

I would dispute that keeping industrial parks open is doable even with lock down. Many cities keep industrial parks open as long as workers are confined to their plants and warehouses and tested regular until the lock down is lifted.
If this is what Shanghai is doing, then sure it is meaningless. But from what I heard, they are trying to only lock down for 48 hours unless there are new cases found within the lockdown scope.
 

KYli

Brigadier
Maybe we have different expectations on how precise the precision method should be. Because there is no magic way to detect the infected. Any method has to be reactive and iterative. Being precise is therefore relative.

IIUC, the Shanghai method is a "parallized" version of the same methodology since Wuhan - test, trace, isolate then repeat. With this method, the working set consists of multiple small areas and tries to make them smaller in subsequent iterations. In the "traditional" approach, we have seen that the working set is a single area that is much larger to begin with, usually by a complete city district and can increase indiscriminately to the whole city eventually.

If the Shanghai approach is dubbed as a "precision method", we might call the traditional approach "brutal force". But this is all my educated guess based on the publicly available info.

In their daily press briefing, the local health authority reports how many new cases were found in "isolated populace (闭环隔离管控人员)" and how many were from the "risky populace (风险人群)". If the latter is getting smaller proportional to the former, the public health staff are closing in on the spreads. The turning point will be when the latter stops increasing.

Anyway, I still think that it's too early to call it failing. A new approach will need refining in practice. Omicron is also new. To me the criteria are: 1. no hospital capacity crunch; 2. the economic impact is decisively smaller. Now I think these are actually quite a high bar to reach. We will see.
From my perspective, it doesn't matter what methods you use. The only criteria is that your method can or can't cut the transmission chains and clusters. Shanghai cases are going up not down, area of lock down is increasing not decreasing.

Don't have problem if Shanghai wanted to continue its method. However, I would caution that Shanghai could become next Hong Kong.
If Shanghai is hiding large number of cases as asymptomatic, it is a serious offense that must be stopped and punished. Or is this just a speculation by the netizens?

Even if their numbers are dubious comparing to the numbers of other cities, to give them the benefit of the doubt, could it be that Shanghai has been reporting its mild cases as asymptomatic? Because, under the new Covid guidance, asymptomatic and mild cases are treated the same and do not need to be hospitalized. But even in this case, the city should have clarified.

Anyway, unless there is credible source to prove otherwise, I choose to trust the published data for the moment. At the same time, yeah I am curious, too, about why Shanghai has so few symptomatic cases among so many infected.

I have no vested interest in defending the city. But I think it is not fair to talk about fairness without considering the pressure on Shanghai and its residents, not only in this Omicron wave but also since the beginning of the pandemic.
If only one symptomatic case out of 50 to 100 asymptomatic cases is not questionable, then I don't know what is. However, it doesn't matter anymore as many cities have adopted policies that would test and quarantine anyone who isn't from their cites.

I would want to point out that it is not just Shanghai that is under enormous pressure. Many mainland cities that border other countries have had multiple lock down already.
IIRC, Shanghai was the last major international traffic hub in mainland that fell victim to the virus. Guangzhou, Qingdao, Tianjin, Dalian, Xi'an and Zhengzhou all had outbreaks caused by imported cases before Shanghai.

Counting the daily imported cases released by NHC, we can see that the Shanghai has been under constant pressure. But it had not had major outbreak and spillover until this March. It cannot be just pure luck. This speaks in volume for how long Shanghai successfully protected the inland for its portion.

While the cities that have received the spillover cases from Shanghai might be justified to call out its blunder in this wave, we should not forget that the residents in Shanghai are bearing the burden when the city is trying to keep its business centers, factories and traffic hubs open, not only for Shanghai itself but also for all other cities that rely on Shanghai to keep their economy running.
I won't dismiss of Shanghai's successes and contributions. However, Shenzhen has also never had a lock down before this wave of Omicron. The pressure of Shenzhen is no less than Shanghai due to multiple waves of covid from Hong Kong and illegal border crossing that is so active between Shenzhen and HK.

Major metropolis powerhouses such as Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Beijing all have lock down. I don't buy the argument that Shanghai is so much more important than other major cities that it can't be locked down for a few days. I think the decision to not lock down is political. As for residents, it is difficult to say if they would prefer a few days over a rolling lock down that can last for a few weeks.


Most of the 2000 cases are asymptomatic that do not need much care though. They do not actually add as much burden as the number sounds. Even if they were reported as symptomatic, they would be mild and treated same as asymptomatic. I don't believe Shanghai has the guts to leave moderate or severer cases untreated in makeshift facilities.


I am not familiar with Shenzhen and haven't paid as much attention to it. Too bad it didn't work out for them.

But if Shanghai still has the capacity, why stop the experiment half way? Sure the numbers have been increasing but the growth are not exponential meaning the spreads are being controlled. Will the spreads have gone out of control tomorrow? I think it is unlikely.


If this is what Shanghai is doing, then sure it is meaningless. But from what I heard, they are trying to only lock down for 48 hours unless there are new cases found within the lockdown scope.
Hong Kong did an overnight lock down to test 20000 to 30000 per day but it still failed to contain Omicron. Shenzhen did even more overkill by testing at least a few times more than HK with longer lock down but still failed.

As for Shanghai, many were told only 48 hours lock down but many residents have been locked down for two weeks already due to the fact that cases keep popping up in their communities. The difference between Shanghai approach to a total lock down is that transit is still operating but restriction have tightened up more and more.
 
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