Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

[taxiya]

Interesting. are you sure about that? While one might get caught out with tens of millions of useless doses, it only takes a couple days to make the modifications under the mRNA method.

inactivated virus is dead (not really dead dead) virus, it is the whole body therefor the full genetic package.

You are right the mRNA may take few days to make the modification, but you need to know which piece of the whole virus to emulate in the virus, how long does the whole process take? We don't know yet. Actually it took months for mRNA to come out. Now we are facing the very first time that mRNA may need to be re-engineered due to the new variants. We will know for sure in half year (first to realize re-engineering is needed, a month to do so in lab, another 3 month for the new vaccine to perform and gather data).

I am not working in medical industry, but I don't understand why inactivated vaccine should take (much) longer time than mRNA, isn't the key process is to find the safe method to "kill" the virus in a level 3/4 lab? Of course, there will be new safety trail (phase I/II) to prove the method works. But doesn't the re-engineered mRNA need safety trial (phase I/II) again as well? Can it be skipped? A question maybe @vesicles is better suited to answer.

 

[localizer]

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This is somethign that needs extensive studies.


1 big wave.

 

[plawolf]

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This is somethign that needs extensive studies.
View attachment 68831

1 big wave.

My gut feeling is someone fishy is going on with their data/reporting.

 

[localizer]

My gut feeling is someone fishy is going on with their data/reporting.

For me it's truly a mystery. Maybe COVID came from India. They already got herd immunity with some mild version of SARS/COVID

Yunnan Bat caves might be closer to India than Wuhan:



Not to mention its neighbors also had relative mild COVID numbers

 

[vesicles]

inactivated virus is dead (not really dead dead) virus, it is the whole body therefor the full genetic package.

You are right the mRNA may take few days to make the modification, but you need to know which piece of the whole virus to emulate in the virus, how long does the whole process take? We don't know yet. Actually it took months for mRNA to come out. Now we are facing the very first time that mRNA may need to be re-engineered due to the new variants. We will know for sure in half year (first to realize re-engineering is needed, a month to do so in lab, another 3 month for the new vaccine to perform and gather data).

I am not working in medical industry, but I don't understand why inactivated vaccine should take (much) longer time than mRNA, isn't the key process is to find the safe method to "kill" the virus in a level 3/4 lab? Of course, there will be new safety trail (phase I/II) to prove the method works. But doesn't the re-engineered mRNA need safety trial (phase I/II) again as well? Can it be skipped? A question maybe @vesicles is better suited to answer.

Scenario 1: Viruses are intracellular parasites. They live inside of our cells, thus hiding themselves from the police (immune cells) in our body. Once the viruses get inside our cells and start replicating, our infected cells can display some viral proteins on the outside to alert our immune cells that they have been infected. This step might take a long time.

Scenario 2: Before viruses enter our cells, they use their spike proteins, the little spikes protruding out of the viral body, to hook up to our cells. That facilitates the infection. At this stage, all the genetic package of the viruses is nicely hidden in their viral capsule, which is nicely hidden in their viral envelope. It's like a Russian doll type of thing... No immune cells in our body can see any of their genetic package. The only viral part exposed to our immune cells would be their spike proteins. This is why the spike proteins have been generally targeted by vaccine developers.

Now, when you inject the whole inactivated virus into a human body, these viruses have been inactivated/killed. So they cannot enter our cells and can no longer replicate. So none of their viral antigens can be displayed by our cells. As such, Scenario 1 doesn't happen.

Only Scenario 2 is possible. So the viral spike proteins are the only part detectable by our immune cells. In that sense, inactivated virus is no different than the DNA/RNA vaccines that encode the spike proteins. The advantage of DNA/RNA vaccines is that they can easily tweak their sequences and modify the vaccines as they go when viruses begin to mutate. This kind of speed cannot be matched by inactivated vaccines.

 

[taxiya]

Scenario 1: Viruses are intracellular parasites. They live inside of our cells, thus hiding themselves from the police (immune cells) in our body. Once the viruses get inside our cells and start replicating, our infected cells can display some viral proteins on the outside to alert our immune cells that they have been infected. This step might take a long time.

Scenario 2: Before viruses enter our cells, they use their spike proteins, the little spikes protruding out of the viral body, to hook up to our cells. That facilitates the infection. At this stage, all the genetic package of the viruses is nicely hidden in their viral capsule, which is nicely hidden in their viral envelope. It's like a Russian doll type of thing... No immune cells in our body can see any of their genetic package. The only viral part exposed to our immune cells would be their spike proteins. This is why the spike proteins have been generally targeted by vaccine developers.

Now, when you inject the whole inactivated virus into a human body, these viruses have been inactivated/killed. So they cannot enter our cells and can no longer replicate. So none of their viral antigens can be displayed by our cells. As such, Scenario 1 doesn't happen.

Only Scenario 2 is possible. So the viral spike proteins are the only part detectable by our immune cells. In that sense, inactivated virus is no different than the DNA/RNA vaccines that encode the spike proteins. The advantage of DNA/RNA vaccines is that they can easily tweak their sequences and modify the vaccines as they go when viruses begin to mutate. This kind of speed cannot be matched by inactivated vaccines.

So we are only talking about scenario 2 and the characteristic spikes here, right? While RNA vaccine adapt to the changed target/characteristic spikes. The inactivate vaccines kills the new variant with the full set of spikes. How would this be slower, or significant slower? What is the trick that I am missing?

 

[caudaceus]

I notice a distinct lack of critical thinking in this post. In addition to the comments already made, I would add the following:

Yes, the US will have infrastructure setup to produce and distribute vaccines inside the USA.
But these are currently mRNA vaccineswhich require temperatures of -20C and -80C for transport.

The amount of mRNA vaccine exports will be severely limited because the receiving countries don't have the infrastructure setup to store and distribute large quantities. And that is even before we consider the much higher cost of mRNA vaccines.

I mean like the article said we are just in the dawn of mRNA. The next research questions will be how to make mRNA survive longer outside of freezer
, how to make it more stable and how to establish a cold chain infrastructure that is feasible to deploy in low income and low infrastructure countries. Maybe in 20 years we can have personalized mRNA based medical products that can be "printed" by your doctor on the spot? The possibility are limitless and China need to accelerate their research.

 

[vesicles]

So we are only talking about scenario 2 and the characteristic spikes here, right? While RNA vaccine adapt to the changed target/characteristic spikes. The inactivate vaccines kills the new variant with the full set of spikes. How would this be slower, or significant slower? What is the trick that I am missing?

Vaccines don't kill viruses directly. Vaccines are coaches. They simulate actual viruses and train your immune cells how to attack actual viruses. They are like the dummy bombs. When a virus mutate enough to cause a modification of the vaccines, that means their spike proteins have changed to some extent. So your existing vaccine no longer works since your immune cells have only been trained to look for the old spikes. To train your immune cells against the new strain, you will need get ahold of that new strain and start growing them like crazy, like tons and tons. Then deactivate/kill them. Then package them for a new version of the vaccine. This will undoubtedly take some time.

For the RNA version, you will need a tiny bit of the new strain so that you can determine the new genetic sequence of the new strain. And typically this info already exists since the time when people find out about a new strain. Then you modify the sequence of your existing RNA vaccine. Input this into your production line. In a few days, you will be churning out millions of doses of new vaccines. Flexibility is a key advantage here.

 

[vincent]

Nah, much earlier than that. I think it's back in the 60's and 70's, the golden age of B movies. It may not be worms... Something infested people's brains and making their brains plastic, maybe?

Not brain worm

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[taxiya]

Vaccines don't kill viruses directly. Vaccines are coaches. They simulate actual viruses and train your immune cells how to attack actual viruses. They are like the dummy bombs. When a virus mutate enough to cause a modification of the vaccines, that means their spike proteins have changed to some extent. So your existing vaccine no longer works since your immune cells have only been trained to look for the old spikes. To train your immune cells against the new strain, you will need get ahold of that new strain and start growing them like crazy, like tons and tons. Then deactivate/kill them. Then package them for a new version of the vaccine. This will undoubtedly take some time.

For the RNA version, you will need a tiny bit of the new strain so that you can determine the new genetic sequence of the new strain. And typically this info already exists since the time when people find out about a new strain. Then you modify the sequence of your existing RNA vaccine. Input this into your production line. In a few days, you will be churning out millions of doses of new vaccines. Flexibility is a key advantage here.

So the essential part is to grow large quality of virus for manufacturing takes longer time, right? It is a production scaling matter, not a research matter.