COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

MortyandRick said:

Too bad. I wonder if COMAC can hire some experienced Russians to do R&D. You never know what key knowledge open may bring.

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Could you specify which project these Russians got their experience and key knowledge from?

Just assume a Russian who graduated from university at age of 22 and jointed the Il-86 team in 1976, when the first flight took place. He is 22+(2024-1976)=70 years old by now;

If he jointed the Il-96 project in 1988, when the first flight of Il-96 took place, he is 22+(2024-1988)=58 years old now, almost has reached the age of retirement.

By the way, if he only jointed the team in 1988, he probably hasn't many experience and key knowledge on R&D of widebody airliner at all since the major R&D work had been done before the first flight.

I'm sure China hired many experienced former Soviet engineers back in 1990s and early 2000s. But now they have already reached the age of retirement even if they are still in China. Even back in 1990s, I don't think a 20 years old Russian engineer could get a job in China since "an experienced engineer" means the person should have been working on a certain field for at least 10 years to gain the experience, so he is supposed to be at least 30-40 years old, not a newbie who has just graduated from university.

Russians are also humans not Goa'uld, the fabricated alien race in American Sci-Fi TV series Stargate who can pass their knowledge from one generation to another by gene. The young generation of Russian engineers haven't any significant experience and key knowledge on widebody airliner R&D since there isn't a project for them to gain these experience and knowledge after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Ironically, CR-929 probably is the only chance for them to gain the experience and knowledge on advanced widebody airliner design from. Now they have to burry their heads in piles of old Soviet aircraft blueprints and refurbish them to meet mother Russia's urgent need of self-sufficiency.

Russia has the Superjet and the MC-21. So they have their own modern regional airliner and transcontinental transport.
Both are more technologically advanced than the similar aircraft China produces. i.e. ARJ-21 and C919.
Russia is also one of the few countries which can ponder having a whole production cycle inside their own country today.
There is no need to use old Soviet aircraft blueprints.

As for the widebody aircraft who knows what the Russians will produce. There are many proposals. They go from minor or major updates to the Il-96, an ellipse cross-section aircraft, or a modern conventional design.



Right now the industry is focused on getting the Superjet and MC-21 with all Russian components out of the door.

gelgoog said:

Russia has the Superjet and the MC-21. So they have their own modern regional airliner and transcontinental transport.
Both are more technologically advanced than the similar aircraft China produces. i.e. ARJ-21 and C919.
Russia is also one of the few countries which can ponder having a whole production cycle inside their own country today.
There is no need to use old Soviet aircraft blueprints.

As for the widebody aircraft who knows what the Russians will produce. There are many proposals. They go from minor or major updates to the Il-96, an ellipse cross-section aircraft, or a modern conventional design.

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The EKIP was a very promising project. I hope they look into it at some point to see if it is still worth developing.

gelgoog said:

Russia has the Superjet and the MC-21. So they have their own modern regional airliner and transcontinental transport.
Both are more technologically advanced than the similar aircraft China produces. i.e. ARJ-21 and C919.
Russia is also one of the few countries which can ponder having a whole production cycle inside their own country today.
There is no need to use old Soviet aircraft blueprints.

As for the widebody aircraft who knows what the Russians will produce. There are many proposals. They go from minor or major updates to the Il-96, an ellipse cross-section aircraft, or a modern conventional design.

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Right now the industry is focused on getting the Superjet and MC-21 with all Russian components out of the door.

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You mean that MC-21 is more technologically advanced than C919? How did you come to this conclusion?

Red tsunami said:

You mean that MC-21 is more technologically advanced than C919? How did you come to this conclusion?

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Wider diameter fuselage, carbon composite wing, etc. Currently the Airbus A220 and the MC-21 are the most technologically advanced aircraft in that segment.

The MC-21 can carry more passengers and fly at longer ranges than the C919. It can carry more payload.

gelgoog said:

The MC-21 can carry more passengers and fly at longer ranges than the C919. It can carry more payload.

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Larger passenger capacity and range cannot simply be used to explain that MC-21 is more advanced than C919, as MC-21-300 is significantly longer and has a larger MTOW.

Sure. Ignore the rest of what I said.

The high aspect ratio carbon composite wing enables higher performance. You basically get better lift. Better than an aircraft with sabrelets made with conventional materials like aluminium.

Besides some important construction components, the real advantage of the MC-21 over the C919 is that it will be immune to any sanctions that put the production of the aircraft at risk since everything will be made in Russia.
There are precedents, remember the Chinese MA-700 already from the start of production of the prototype, but even more so the Russian SSJ-100 Superjet which was already in production and from night to morning was left without the components produced in the countries that imposed sanctions , including the engines which were half produced in France, without new components and without spare parts.
Now they are taking action and the aircraft will be completely Russian, but time will be needed to do this.
So to repeat myself, the major superiority of the MC-21 and also the new SJ-100 is that they are immune to today's or tomorrow's sanctions

Red tsunami said:

Larger passenger capacity and range cannot simply be used to explain that MC-21 is more advanced than C919, as MC-21-300 is significantly longer and has a larger MTOW.

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The actual advantage MC-21 has over C919 is, composite wing.. rest more or less on same technological level.. MC-21-300 is a big aircraft so can carry more fuel and passengers ...

C919 stretched variant is under development. that plane can carry 210 passengers with extended range.. this variant basically complete overhaul with new Composite wing, materials , advanced avionics include more modern cockpit..

sahureka said:

Besides some important construction components, the real advantage of the MC-21 over the C919 is that it will be immune to any sanctions that put the production of the aircraft at risk since everything will be made in Russia.
There are precedents, remember the Chinese MA-700 already from the start of production of the prototype, but even more so the Russian SSJ-100 Superjet which was already in production and from night to morning was left without the components produced in the countries that imposed sanctions , including the engines which were half produced in France, without new components and without spare parts.
Now they are taking action and the aircraft will be completely Russian, but time will be needed to do this.
So to repeat myself, the major superiority of the MC-21 and also the new SJ-100 is that they are immune to today's or tomorrow's sanctions

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MA-700 has already took three test flights with Domestic engines.. Canada refused to supply engines so program has delayed..

we have discuss about ''C919 localization'' many times before.. it seems you didn't read..

as of June, 2024 .. majority of C919 components/parts currently producing in mainland except engine and some other components. the imported parts has domestic substitute available right now. CJ-1000 engine entered in COMAC supply chain.. Tires , Landing Gear system , Avionics , Radars , Glass cockpit and Auxiliary Power Unit from next year onward will be localized. all materials and machine tool have been replaced too. and the most important thing, Civil aviation aircraft assembling and design software have been localized too.

sunnymaxi said:

MA-700 has already took three test flights with Domestic engines.. Canada refused to supply engines so program has delayed..

we have discuss about ''C919 localization'' many times before.. it seems you didn't read..

as of June, 2024 .. majority of C919 components/parts currently producing in mainland except engine and some other components. the imported parts has domestic substitute available right now. CJ-1000 engine entered in COMAC supply chain.. Tires , Landing Gear system , Avionics , Radars , Glass cockpit and Auxiliary Power Unit from next year onward will be localized. all materials and machine tool have been replaced too. and the most important thing, Civil aviation aircraft assembling and design software have been localized too.

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Excellent prospect, when this version of the C-919 with minimal or no foreign components and with CJ-1000 turbofans is tested, goes into production and flies with airlines, it will be a huge step forward for the aviation industry Chinese trade and... will be immune from possible embargoes and sanctions.