COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

escobar said:

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That article isn't that good. Even the title is BS. Both countries started with their latest civil aviation efforts way before the sanctions hit.
Even the CR929, the idea for a joint Sino-Russian venture for that is from 2012 before Crimea was annexed.

Then you have quotes like this.

Russia and China can build an airplane together, but without avionics and other systems—not to mention engines—it will be just a “hollow shell.”

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Right. But you would think Russia and China, with their huge MICs would easily manage to make avionics. I will give you examples. How much different do you think would be the avionics of an airplane like the CR929 compared to those of the Y-20? The H-6K also has a glass cockpit. The Russians are currently installing glass cockpits on the Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 bombers. Do you think they are purchasing those from foreign suppliers? That is bunk. As for the engines the Russians developed the PD-14 engine recently are are already working on the PD-35 engine doing subscale component testing. There is no reason to think they cannot develop an engine.

gelgoog said:

That article isn't that good. Even the title is BS. Both countries started with their latest civil aviation efforts way before the sanctions hit.
Even the CR929, the idea for a joint Sino-Russian venture for that is from 2012 before Crimea was annexed.

Then you have quotes like this.


Right. But you would think Russia and China, with their huge MICs would easily manage to make avionics. I will give you examples. How much different do you think would be the avionics of an airplane like the CR929 compared to those of the Y-20? The H-6K also has a glass cockpit. The Russians are currently installing glass cockpits on the Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 bombers. Do you think they are purchasing those from foreign suppliers? That is bunk. As for the engines the Russians developed the PD-14 engine recently are are already working on the PD-35 engine doing subscale component testing. There is no reason to think they cannot develop an engine.

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I think the author conflates a lack of ability with readily certifiable engines/avionics (ie Honeywell and PW/RR) with FAA and EASA certifications. This they are most certainly at least half right, even with near identical performance certification of Russian or Chinese systems will take a long time.

Meh it feels to me that the CR929 has been bogged down for various reasons

While cooperation with Russia has the potential for ToT, better practises etc it clearly slows down the project as each country is trying to safeguard its own technologies then you have communication issues, different cultures, tech culture education culture etc.

IMO It would be preferable if China could launch an award for developing prototype aircrafts and them awarding a fixed amount of money to 3 corporations. Then sit back and have these companies compete to create their own different aircrafts and then select 1 or 2 finalists who will then advance their aircraft from prototype to a final product

China has for a long time tried to develop their own aircraft with AFAIK only 1 success of a regional aircraft.

Something must change as it shows that things are not progressing as fast as they should be. And this is important because every year that a domestic aircraft is not available is 1 year which the domestic industry subsidies western competitors

Dont worry guys, Chinese will make it by their own sooner or later, just relax and watch the show.
BTW, current concept of commercial airplanes gonna be obsolete soon, new players are emerging (similar like about EVs, just decades later) so so called duopoly will splash away even without Russians and Chinese... There are no any major innovations by Boeing and Airbus since they started their bussinesses, and it will be punished soon...
Just lay down and watch the show, and it will be amazing one...

As mentioned a few days ago in another thread, by manufacturing the first flightworthy composite wing out of domestic raw materials, Russia has also sanctions-proofed a key aspect of the CR929.

OT:

AF-1 said:

BTW, current concept of commercial airplanes gonna be obsolete soon, new players are emerging (similar like about EVs, just decades later) so so called duopoly will splash away even without Russians and Chinese... There are no any major innovations by Boeing and Airbus since they started their bussinesses, and it will be punished soon...
Just lay down and watch the show, and it will be amazing one...

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Are you referring to the numerous hybrid and fully electric concepts peddled by certain start-ups? Most of these will die a horrible death, as they are at odds with basic physics. A few sub-regional projects might succeed, but Airbus and Boeing occupy the market space above 100 seats, and we are decades away from making electric aviation work economically in this size class. Further still from making an electric widebody aircraft of intercontinental range happen - unless there is a piston -> jet style revolution soonish, I'm not sure I'll live to see it (and I expect to be around for quite a few more years!).

Even the very short range UAM sector is going to see a mass extinction event at some point, and paradoxically it will likely be the projects by traditional aviation OEMs like Airbus and Bell which survive, if any. Just because something works in a car doesn't mean it can be successfully applied to aircraft, by a long shot. Else commercial aircraft would still be powered by piston engines today, or the gas turbine would be dominating the car industry in the same way as it does commercial aviation. There are very good reasons why these sectors use wildly different propulsion technologies.

Currently, we can already witness this kind of reckoning in another cutting edge sector of civilian aviation much beloved of start-ups outside the established OEMs: supersonic business jets and airliners. Aerion has folded, despite having, in many respects, the most realistic and plausible concept and powerful backers (GE for the engines, support from big guns LM, Airbus & Boeing at various points). By lowering ambition to a speed of Mach 1.4 (enabling fixed intakes and easing the cruise efficiency/take-off noise dichotomy in propulsion) and transatlantic range, it was considerably more achievable than Boom's Mach 2.2 jet. And still it failed... it will be interesting to see how Boom fares against this background - they seem to be a talented bunch, but will probably require a VCE which seems extravagant for such a small market niche.

pipaster said:

I think the author conflates a lack of ability with readily certifiable engines/avionics (ie Honeywell and PW/RR) with FAA and EASA certifications. This they are most certainly at least half right, even with near identical performance certification of Russian or Chinese systems will take a long time.

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Perhaps. But they will have a long time to work on it. There is nothing preventing, for example, China from certifying avionics on a C919 and then using that certification to work on the ones for the CR929. Just look at the Y-20's cockpit.


Does this look all that different from the cockpit of a modern airliner?

The joint Russian-Chinese project might fail eventually but enough knowledge will come from it that it will make the development of the separate efforts in Russia and China easier. Neither country seems to want to back out of making such an aircraft. For the Russians most of the financing is already being done. The PD-35 engine will cost billions of dollars to develop and work is ongoing. The avionics, it is something they had to do regardless since part of the projects for the Superjet-NEW and MS-21 include making their own avionics for those aircraft. The whole idea is to get rid of Western suppliers. This has been part of Russian policy for the better part of a decade already. The PD-14, PD-8, PD-35 engines are only one aspect of it. They are also financing APUs, avionics, the works.

voyager1 said:

Meh it feels to me that the CR929 has been bogged down for various reasons

While cooperation with Russia has the potential for ToT, better practises etc it clearly slows down the project as each country is trying to safeguard its own technologies then you have communication issues, different cultures, tech culture education culture etc.

IMO It would be preferable if China could launch an award for developing prototype aircrafts and them awarding a fixed amount of money to 3 corporations. Then sit back and have these companies compete to create their own different aircrafts and then select 1 or 2 finalists who will then advance their aircraft from prototype to a final product

China has for a long time tried to develop their own aircraft with AFAIK only 1 success of a regional aircraft.

Something must change as it shows that things are not progressing as fast as they should be. And this is important because every year that a domestic aircraft is not available is 1 year which the domestic industry subsidies western competitors

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Do you have any official timeline?

Some updates on CR929.

China And Russia Want To Start Building The 1st CR929 This Year​