COMAC C919 - China's first modern airliner

plawolf · Nov 3, 2015

Would WTO rules even apply to products produced only for the domestic market of the country making it?

At most the WTO could ban China selling the C919 (which seems incredibly unlikely on "subsidies" grounds since both Airbus and Boeing both have, and still do enjoy plenty of that themselves) internationally, it would have absolutely zero grounds to stop the Chinese making it for themselves.

Besides, I seriously doubt the US would be so stupid as to push that point so far, to try would simply see Boeing shut out of the entire Chinese air market and all the action going to Airbus and Chinese firms.

antiterror13 · Nov 3, 2015

SamuraiBlue said:
It's not particulally Obama that is behind it, it's capitalism demanding fair competition.
The WTO rules I believe accepts government loans on private projects but not direct funding in which does not required to be returned.
If you have a grudge tell it to WTO since I don't make the rules.

Please back to the topic which is "Chinese Aviation Industry"

SamuraiBlue · Nov 3, 2015

plawolf said:
Would WTO rules even apply to products produced only for the domestic market of the country making it?

At most the WTO could ban China selling the C919 (which seems incredibly unlikely on "subsidies" grounds since both Airbus and Boeing both have, and still do enjoy plenty of that themselves) internationally, it would have absolutely zero grounds to stop the Chinese making it for themselves.

I doubt they will ban sales just rule COMAC require to pay back the government the fund as loan with a percentage of interest based on other government low interest loans and adjust the price of the product accordingly.
Like I said Japan had see various resistance trying to enter the western market and had gone through this kind of situation numerous time with the US and WTO on these kind of issues. You just need to be persistent on succeeding.

lcloo · Nov 3, 2015

I once heard that the Westerners thinks and place their strategy a decade or two ahead, while the Chinese will think of the century ahead and set their mind accordingly.

C919 will face a lot of obstacles in first decades or two, either because of technical knowhow or by deliberate actions from competitors and their supporters. Looking ahead beyond 2 decades, i.e. after 2035, I am very sure COMAC will be well stablished and accepted by all.

With 517 orders already in their book, the production line may need to run for more than 8 years, assuming they can put out 5 units of C919 every month. And assuming first flight to first production unit takes 5 years (year 2020), COMAC would be busy till 2028 with current orders alone.

I do not believe that COMAC or China's CAAC is not able to get FAA certification or some sort of agreement tying FAA certification to CAAC certification and vis-a-vis in year 2028 or years beyond.

And Chinese think beyond 2030 even 2050 and after.

plawolf · Nov 3, 2015

The main reason C919 uses so many foreign components is to help ease and speed up its certification by foreign aviation authorities.

The plan is to minimise unknowns at launch to establish the brand, then gradually increase Chinese domestic content.

Baby steps.

GreenestGDP · Nov 3, 2015

plawolf said:
The main reason C919 uses so many foreign components is to help ease and speed up its certification by foreign aviation authorities.

The plan is to minimise unknowns at launch to establish the brand, then gradually increase Chinese domestic content.

Baby steps.

Just my 2 cents observation ... ...
IMHO, ... ...

I thought COMAC is not trying to sell first and foremost on domestic PRC market.
Hence, US FAA certification is not critical.
Thus, building domestic components suppliers is the #1 goal.

Ohh, maybe COMAC has inferiority complex, and need to sell C919 in US market,
in order to feel good about themselves.

For a long time, Huawei CEO Ren Zhengfei had this inferiority complex too.
Mentally, many people in China still has this black hole inferiority complex.

Look, compare to A320 and B737, ... ...
COMAC * C919 offer more comfortable wider seating arrangement.

... ... Back to topic of Sino Aviation Industry.

SamuraiBlue · Nov 3, 2015

lcloo said:
I once heard that the Westerners thinks and place their strategy a decade or two ahead, while the Chinese will think of the century ahead and set their mind accordingly.

C919 will face a lot of obstacles in first decades or two, either because of technical knowhow or by deliberate actions from competitors and their supporters. Looking ahead beyond 2 decades, i.e. after 2035, I am very sure COMAC will be well stablished and accepted by all.

With 517 orders already in their book, the production line may need to run for more than 8 years, assuming they can put out 5 units of C919 every month. And assuming first flight to first production unit takes 5 years (year 2020), COMAC would be busy till 2028 with current orders alone.

I do not believe that COMAC or China's CAAC is not able to get FAA certification or some sort of agreement tying FAA certification to CAAC certification and vis-a-vis in year 2028 or years beyond.

And Chinese think beyond 2030 even 2050 and after.

That may not be enough since both AB and Boeing churns out around 40 to 50 units a month of their a320/B737s.
Don't know how much back order they have but if I was an airline operator I wouldn't wait for another 8 years for a plane I order today when a competitor is willing to provide a similar option within two years.

plawolf · Nov 3, 2015

GreenestGDP said:
Just my 2 cents observation ... ...
IMHO, ... ...

I thought COMAC is not trying to sell first and foremost on domestic PRC market.
Hence, US FAA certification is not critical.
Thus, building domestic components suppliers is the #1 goal.

Ohh, maybe COMAC has inferiority complex, and need to sell C919 in US market,
in order to feel good about themselves.

For a long time, Huawei CEO Ren Zhengfei had this inferiority complex too.
Mentally, many people in China still has this black hole inferiority complex.

Look, compare to A320 and B737, ... ...
COMAC * C919 offer more comfortable wider seating arrangement.

View attachment 21070

... ... Back to topic of Sino Aviation Industry.

You need local FAA approval and certification to fly in a country. Without such certifications, the C919 would simply not be allow to fly in foreign countries' arispace, which will massively limit the routes the plane could be used for, and thus its popularity and appeal to airlines.

Equation · Nov 3, 2015

Brumby said:
Are you sure about that? Who do you think are footing the NPL's and non performing SOE's? The difference is the lack of transparency and reporting as to what is going on.

Government company = government money = government problem

So what tax payers money did they took out of the nation's budget?

vincent · Nov 3, 2015

SamuraiBlue said:
I doubt they will ban sales just rule COMAC require to pay back the government the fund as loan with a percentage of interest based on other government low interest loans and adjust the price of the product accordingly.

It's a super easy problem to solve. The government simply "invest" in the project and take a cut of the profit (or loss) as a result. That's what the Quebec government is doing with its handouts to Bombardier.

COMAC C919 - China's first modern airliner

plawolf

Lieutenant General

antiterror13

Brigadier

SamuraiBlue

Captain

lcloo

Captain

plawolf

Lieutenant General

GreenestGDP

Junior Member

SamuraiBlue

Captain

plawolf

Lieutenant General

Equation

Lieutenant General

vincent

Grumpy Old Man