Chinese Video/Computer Games

solarz

Brigadier
Returning to a conversation from some months back...


Well, having now spent some 200 hours playing through The Witcher III over the past three months, the "controversy" over Ciri being a witcher and the main character in The Witcher IV makes less sense to me than ever. Ciri is de facto Geralt's adopted daughter, and her growth over the course of TW3 culminates, at least in the most compelling ending for the game, in her stepping directly into the role of witcher as Geralt's apprentice. Meanwhile, Geralt's estate at Corvo Bianco in the Blood and Wine expansion, while not directly announcing his retirement, clearly implies that he has more witchering adventures behind him than remaining ahead of him, a theme that is reinforced throughout the expansion with its focus on the echoes into the present of things past, and the notion that idyllic, apparently unchanging appearances must inevitably give way to change.

From the perspective of TW3, that TW4 is shifting to Ciri as the main character, and as a witcher, seems not only reasonable but the natural and almost inevitable extension of the story already told. Of course that may not fit with the book canon. I haven't read the books, though I'm intrigued to do so, so I can't speak to that aspect of things. Changes are inevitable in adapting one medium to the other, the only question is whether those changes are good or bad, both in and of themselves and in the broader context of the narrative goals they advance. If the complaint is that Ciri hasn't gone through or shouldn't be capable of surviving the Trial of the Grasses and so shouldn't have access to the full suite of witcher mutations, that strikes me as a very thin objection. I mean, this is a girl who was wandering through multiverses in order to avert the apocalypse, and folks are quibbling about witcher mutations? The real narrative challenge is to de-power Ciri enough from her end-TW3 state that she can be credibly threatened by a hostile world and have a narrative of personal growth/discovery in TW4. It's also clear that Geralt will still be part of the story, and that will be great to see.

Attached are a couple of clips from the "Ciri as Witcher" endings for the base game and Blood and Wine expansions respectively, of which the Witcher IV trailer released a few months ago seems a natural extension:



My thoughts on this...

First of all, the W4 trailer Ciri has clearly been uglified:

960x0.jpg


This doesn't bode well for the aesthetics of the game.

Second, in the W4 trailer, we see Ciri using the exact same tactics as Geralt when fighting the monster.

From a lore point of view, this makes no sense. In order to drink Witcher potions, you have to undergo the Trial of Grasses, a process so dangerous only 3 out of 10 boys survive, and it has only ever been used on prepubescent boys, while Ciri is an adult woman. Why would Ciri undergo such a dangerous process just to gain some minor Witcher powers when she has the Elder Blood in her?

From a meta point of view, CDPR could have made Ciri the protagonist, even a Witcher, but they could have made her a teleporting, magic-using character. This would have opened up a whole new system of gameplay. Instead, CDPR decided to rehash the same potion/sign/swordplay formula they've been using in the last 3 games. This shows a lack of desire for innovation, which doesn't bode well for the gameplay and narrative of the game.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
My thoughts on this...

First of all, the W4 trailer Ciri has clearly been uglified:

960x0.jpg


This doesn't bode well for the aesthetics of the game.

Second, in the W4 trailer, we see Ciri using the exact same tactics as Geralt when fighting the monster.

From a lore point of view, this makes no sense. In order to drink Witcher potions, you have to undergo the Trial of Grasses, a process so dangerous only 3 out of 10 boys survive, and it has only ever been used on prepubescent boys, while Ciri is an adult woman. Why would Ciri undergo such a dangerous process just to gain some minor Witcher powers when she has the Elder Blood in her?

From a meta point of view, CDPR could have made Ciri the protagonist, even a Witcher, but they could have made her a teleporting, magic-using character. This would have opened up a whole new system of gameplay. Instead, CDPR decided to rehash the same potion/sign/swordplay formula they've been using in the last 3 games. This shows a lack of desire for innovation, which doesn't bode well for the gameplay and narrative of the game.
they give the character more chin than Popeye.

1742502728156.png
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It's ironic where the West portrays Japan as having a racist culture but somehow they'll believe they let a black man become a Samurai. I saw another YouTube video saying there's a conspiracy theory going on in Japan that the West is using this as an excuse to force Japan pay reparations to Africans.

Marvel Rivals should be a lesson for Tencent partnering to save Ubisoft. Western game developers are just trouble and they'll lie about their importance just like the ones Marvel Rivals laid off. And the anti-woke gamers at first took the bait returning to natural instincts because in the end they wanted to believe Westerners were being taken advantage of and exploited for their superior talent and then let go because they were white Americans.
 

Lethe

Captain
My thoughts on this...

First of all, the W4 trailer Ciri has clearly been uglified:

This doesn't bode well for the aesthetics of the game.

My impressions are very different: what I find most striking about the Witcher IV trailer is just how much it looks like an extension of The Witcher III. The lighting, materials and colours, how the trees are rendered. I can't go back and strip out my knowledge of what game the trailer is for, but if it were possible to run that experiment I think there's a good chance I could identify the trailer as depicting a Witcher game from some of the landscape, village and secondary character shots alone. The art style is very consistent despite the >10-year gap between entries.

Regarding the character design, I think one aspect of what we are seeing in that trailer is a consequence of maintaining that consistent art style with increased fidelity. The Witcher games have a gritty, low-stylization aesthetic that befits the world they are set in, with characters more-or-less integrated into that world (contrast with something like Stellar Blade where there is a noticeable gap between how its characters are rendered compared to the surrounding environments, or any number of games that have entirely different aesthetic/tonal presentations). The consequence is that as fidelity ramps up, characters appear less photogenic. It's similar to the phenomenon that the more recent Mortal Kombat games have been grappling with: the brutal "fatalities" that are a signature feature of that franchise have become an increasingly dubious asset as the fidelity of their rendering has increased, such that what were once hilarious depictions of cartoonish violence are now increasingly gruesome and off-putting. For what it's worth, I think we can safely assume that there will be several soirée/dress-up opportunities in TW4 just as there were in TW3. I mean, the cinematic trailer for TW3 didn't exactly capture the full range of that game's tonal expression either:


I'm disappointed that they have changed Ciri's voice actor, though. Jo Wyatt was great in TW3.

Second, in the W4 trailer, we see Ciri using the exact same tactics as Geralt when fighting the monster.

From a lore point of view, this makes no sense. In order to drink Witcher potions, you have to undergo the Trial of Grasses, a process so dangerous only 3 out of 10 boys survive, and it has only ever been used on prepubescent boys, while Ciri is an adult woman. Why would Ciri undergo such a dangerous process just to gain some minor Witcher powers when she has the Elder Blood in her?

From a meta point of view, CDPR could have made Ciri the protagonist, even a Witcher, but they could have made her a teleporting, magic-using character. This would have opened up a whole new system of gameplay. Instead, CDPR decided to rehash the same potion/sign/swordplay formula they've been using in the last 3 games. This shows a lack of desire for innovation, which doesn't bode well for the gameplay and narrative of the game.

I think The Witcher IV trailer sought to demonstrate three things:

1. That Ciri is the new main character.
2. That Ciri is a witcher.
3. That The Witcher IV is still a Witcher game: aesthetically, tonally, morally.

#2 is why the trailer goes out of its way to show the two swords, the medallion, the potions and the signs. Showing something that doesn't fit with what we know of Geralt and witchers would undermine the clarity of that message.

I would be surprised if Ciri's abilities in TW4 duplicate Geralt's exactly, but at the same time I wouldn't expect them to deviate too far from that formula. A successful new chapter requires both change and continuity: too much continuity risks stagnation, too much change risks a loss of identity. There is a clearly a large narrative gap to be covered to account for Ciri being de-powered to step into the Geralt's shoes as a witcher, the question is if you trust CDPR to bridge that gap in a compelling and satisfying way. Personally, I do. For all the flaws in CDPR's games that folks can reasonably point to, their characters and writing have been their most consistent strengths. That doesn't mean they're guaranteed to be successful this time around, but it means I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes it doesn't work out: I reserved my judgement regarding Redfall based upon Arkane's previous stellar games (the Dishonored franchise and Prey) and was ultimately disappointed. Other times one is pleasantly surprised, as with how Denis Villeneuve's Blade Runner 2049 turned out to be a worthy sequel to Blade Runner.

The amnesia that Geralt suffers in the first two Witcher games is arguably as significant a deviation from the source material (Sapkowski's books) as making Ciri a witcher is. Slavish adherence to the source material is not necessarily a recipe for success. Nor is casually picking-and-choosing from that material what to use and what to discard likely to be a recipe for success. If changes are necessary, they should be clearly motivated to productive ends (in the case of Geralt's amnesia, it was to allow the character to discover the world in concert with the player and to provide greater latitude for the player to make choices based on their own instincts) and with the full range of implications having been thought through. There are lots of folks who were disappointed by certain changes that Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens made to Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings in creating their trilogy of films, such as the complete omission of the character Tom Bombadil, but it's also clear that those were carefully considered choices made by people with deep knowledge of and respect for the source material who nonetheless had to tell a story in an altogether different medium with different constraints. Conversely, the more recent backlash against The Witcher TV series, or Amazon's Rings of Power, appears to stem from the deeper sense that the people running these shows have little regard for the source material. Perhaps if I had actually read Sapkowski's novels I might feel otherwise, but at the moment my impression is that CDPR is on the Peter Jackson/LOTR end of that spectrum.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Regarding the character design, I think one aspect of what we are seeing in that trailer is a consequence of maintaining that consistent art style with increased fidelity. The Witcher games have a gritty, low-stylization aesthetic that befits the world they are set in, with characters more-or-less integrated into that world (contrast with something like Stellar Blade where there is a noticeable gap between how its characters are rendered compared to the surrounding environments, or any number of games that have entirely different aesthetic/tonal presentations). The consequence is that as fidelity ramps up, characters appear less photogenic. It's similar to the phenomenon that the more recent Mortal Kombat games have been grappling with: the brutal "fatalities" that are a signature feature of that franchise have become an increasingly dubious asset as the fidelity of their rendering has increased, such that what were once hilarious depictions of cartoonish violence are now increasingly gruesome and off-putting. For what it's worth, I think we can safely assume that there will be several soirée/dress-up opportunities in TW4. I mean, the equivalent cinematic trailer for TW3 didn't exactly capture the full range of that game's tonal expression either:

I completely disagree. There is no link between fidelity and photogenicity. You can certainly have high fidelity environments with photogenic characters. I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here.

The amnesia that Geralt suffers in the first two Witcher games is arguably as significant a deviation from the source material (Sapkowski's books) as making Ciri a witcher is. Slavish adherence to the source material is not necessarily a recipe for success. Nor is casually picking-and-choosing from that material what to use and what to discard likely to be a recipe for success.

It's not about slavish adherence to the source material. It's about internal consistency and gameplay innovation.

Witcher 3 made it a huge point that the Trial of Grasses was extremely dangerous. It also went out of its way to highlight how powerful Ciri is as a Child of Elder Blood. These two points seem to have gotten tossed out of the window by making Ciri become a full fledged witcher.

On a meta side, we've played with Geralt and his two-sword, aard/quen/igni/axii, and witcher potion play style for 3 games now. Witcher 3 was the pinnacle of that system. Rather than trying to build a new playstyle to suit Ciri, CDPR is trying to rehash the same formula. It's just disappointing.

BTW, I have 555 hours in Witcher 3:

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Lethe

Captain
It's not about slavish adherence to the source material. It's about internal consistency and gameplay innovation.

Witcher 3 made it a huge point that the Trial of Grasses was extremely dangerous. It also went out of its way to highlight how powerful Ciri is as a Child of Elder Blood. These two points seem to have gotten tossed out of the window by making Ciri become a full fledged witcher.

That the trailer doesn't explain how Ciri has seemingly been de-powered and has re-emerged as a "full-fledged" witcher in no way implies that those subjects have been "tossed out the window". There is no doubt that TW4 will advance an explanation for those developments. The only question is how coherent and satisfying that explanation will be. Indeed, reading between the lines of the article linked below, I think there is a good prospect that Ciri's transformation into a full-fledged witcher is actually part of the TW4's main narrative, rather than something that occurs in the gap between the two games.

On a meta side, we've played with Geralt and his two-sword, aard/quen/igni/axii, and witcher potion play style for 3 games now. Witcher 3 was the pinnacle of that system. Rather than trying to build a new playstyle to suit Ciri, CDPR is trying to rehash the same formula. It's just disappointing.

So far as I can tell, CDPR have been very circumspect about the game and aren't willing to talk about anything beyond what is depicted in the trailer, but they
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that Ciri's magical abilities are not simply carbon copies of Geralt's:

What CDPR is teasing out in this trailer is a fusion between traditional witcher combat proficiencies and her unique ability to wield magic. If you recall from the original trilogy of Witcher games, Geralt is only able to cast exceptionally basic 'signs'. But as a Source, Ciri is able to wield powerful sorcery; you see this in the trailer, as she shifts from backfoot to upper hand after drawing energy from a water source and channel it into 'Bolt', an electrifying spell that transitions the battle into its next phase.

Ciri wrapping a silver chain around the Bauk's neck may be a fun callback to The Witcher's opening cinematic, but how she is able to enchant this utility tool with fire is unlike anything Geralt could have achieved in that iconic fight against the Striga some 16 years ago. "What you've seen is a tease, but it's there for a reason. You can see the swords, you can see the chain, and you can see her using magic too, and how she uses them all against the boosted monster she encounters. It's there to show you what our ambition is with The Witcher 4," says Mitręga.

Interesting that you bring up the two swords. For me, that mechanic is symbolic of CDPR's commitment to the world that Sapkowski has created (even if they altered it to make the silver sword more generically useful). You wouldn't invent such a mechanic from scratch, because it creates unnecessary complexity (especially while using a controller) for little return in gameplay terms, yet they persist with it because that's how a witcher works in Sapkowski's universe, and because it works thematically:

I believe in the sword. As you can see, I carry two. Every witcher does. It's said, spitefully, the silver one is for monsters and the iron for humans. But that's wrong. As there are monsters which can be struck down only with a silver blade, so there are those for whom iron is lethal.
 
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Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the Japanese are mad about Assassin’s Creed Shadows they could always make a game set in 1945 America where a Japanese immigrant escapes internment and massacres white racists while the American girls are all over him. At least, that’d be just as historically accurate.

But the Japanese are such mentally defeated people they’d rather make their own variations of American sex tourist in Japan except white instead of black:

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Can't complain about people taking a dump on your heritage, when you voluntarily do it yourself. Western developers probably saw all the self-owning the Japanese were doing and were like, "yeah, maybe they enjoy being dominated by foreign men." Choices have consequences.
 
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