Chinese Video/Computer Games

Blitzo · Sep 23, 2024

GZDRefugee said:
The movement and moveset animations upon release very closely imitates Automata. Nothing against it—it's smooth, fluid, dynamic, stylish, and most importantly fun. IMO it's something that more games should imitate because it just feels so good. Mihoyo added their own spin to it as the game went through its update cycles, iterating upon their own work. Zenless also heavily builds on what they did before.

I've played both of the games, I must say I don't quite see it.

I think one or two of the claymore users in Genshin sort of resemble the moveset of the claymore/greatsword moveset in Automata, but considering how many characters there are in Genshin (all of whom have some degree of unique combat movements) and the five weapon classes that exist in Genshin (including bow and spellcasting which doesn't exist in Automata), it really feels like a reach to say "pulled basically everything from Nier Automata".

The movement in Genshin is not particularly like Automata, either in terms of ground movement, getting up/down ladders, not to mention ways of getting around that don't exist in Automata (gliding, swimming, underwater).

At most one could say there are one or two instances of superficial similarities in a specific part of a moveset for a specific weapon for a specific character or two, and that it adapts the "carrying a weapon hovering behind the character model" thing, but apart from that there's not much similar, and both games are far more than merely those minor aesthetic traits.

vincent · Sep 23, 2024

Eventine said:
Dyson Sphere is one of a kind, but Genshin copied most of its mechanics from Breath of the Wild, and as you said it yourself, Portia is basically 3D Stardew Valley, while Black Myth: Wukong is similar to Lies of P (from South Korea) in being an incremental improvement on existing "Souls like" action games (though it is probably closest to God of War in inspiration).

Game design innovation does not come from coding skills, but from devoting time & effort to design iteration. Game design, in my observation, is still a young industry in China, and Chinese game designers tend to be more derivative because historically, derivative games were highly successful (see two of the most successful games in China - Honor of Kings, basically a League of Legends clone on mobile; and Player Unknown Battle Grounds Mobile, whose name speaks for itself).

For China's game industry to get out of this pattern, Chinese gamers need to develop more sophisticated demands than AAA production quality and marketing. And we know it can be done because Japan is actually the source of a lot of gameplay innovation in recent decades. So it should be possible for China to do more in this space. Think one reason why it doesn't happen more is also government regulations - the limited number of approvals per year kind of limits more experimental games.

找爹？

Eventine · Sep 23, 2024

Blitzo said:
By your description, we could say that: Cyberpunk is just a sci fi themed Elder Scrolls, God of war 2018/Ragnarok is just Dark Souls with a bit more story, Lies of P is just Dark Souls with a Sekiro parry mechanic, FPSes and Assassins Creeds are all just the same game copy and pasted forever with different skins, turn based RPGs are just ye olde final fantasy titles with flashier graphics.

So I think it is strange to say that "Most Chinese games today are imitative on the gameplay side and the depth of gameplay is often lacking" -- one can remove the word "Chinese" in that sentence and broaden it to mean all recent games in general, in the world.

Successfully iterating and innovating on game mechanics and traits if anything shows why two examples you criticized (Genshin and Black Myth) are successful.
Genshin's real time quick swap elemental combat and continuously growing map and character roster is a fresh touch on an open world exploration loop that succeeds despite being in a GaaS gacha business model.
Black Myth is able to bring a bunch of action RPG staples in a melee combat system that is simple and complex and using a weapon type that is rarely featured in most games, combining it with real time use of spells and unique bosses with cohesive art direction and lore.

All of which isn't to say that the Chinese game development industry has matched, as a whole, that of Japan or the US/west -- however I do think that there isn't anything particularly "innovative" out of games that companies in Japan or the US/west (or anyone else) has pushed out in the last decade or so, in terms of game mechanics or design. Instead, they are understandably iterative, and that's okay because you don't need to be "innovative" in mechanics or designs to be a good and satisfying game.

Apart from having a weapon that floats behind their character model, I don't think there's any particular resemblance to Nier Automata.
There are certain open world/exploration traits that it shares with Breath of the Wild, and one or two minor aesthetic similarities to Nier Automata (fan service gooner bait character models being the other possible similarity), but everything else about it is fairly unique (in so much as an open world RPG can be). The real time quick swap and elemental reaction system is something that Genshin executes well that I haven't seen other games do as satisfyingly.

It’s true that most games today are simply incremental derivatives of earlier, genre defining gameplay innovations. But where are those genre defining gameplay elements innovations coming from? Almost exclusively the West and Japan. That’s the point.

It is also not true that these games are no longer being made. Just a few years ago we saw Phasmophobia, which spawned off a new ghost hunting genre. And recently, we saw the rise of extraction shooters (Escape from Tarkov as the original prototype but the real take off is last few years with Hunt, etc.) Then there’s independent successes like Dredge and Cocoon that have unique gameplay loops and will likely serve as inspirations for future AAA games.

Not to write off the recent achievements of the Chinese game industry (which I praised earlier in this thread) but truly innovative (and thus influential in a genre defining sense) gameplay titles are still far rarer compared to the West and Japan.

Blitzo · Sep 23, 2024

Eventine said:
It’s true that most games today are simply incremental derivatives of earlier, genre defining gameplay innovations. But where are those genre defining gameplay elements innovations coming from? Almost exclusively the West and Japan. That’s the point.

I don't think that's a good question, because you make it sound like those old genre defining gameplay innovations were a reflection of some sort of magic sauce rather than the West and Japan being the only real players in the gameplay development space when video games were in their infancy.

Putting it another way, I'm arguing is that no one is particularly pushing out genre defining innovations in the last decade or so.

Eventine said:
It is also not true that these games are no longer being made. Just a few years ago we saw Phasmophobia, which spawned off a new ghost hunting genre. And recently, we saw the rise of extraction shooters (Escape from Tarkov as the original prototype but the real take off is last few years with Hunt, etc.) Then there’s independent successes like Dredge and Cocoon that have unique gameplay loops and will likely serve as inspirations for future AAA games.

Extraction shooters can be argued to just be a derivative of usual FPS videogames, while the other two you mentioned are relatively indie and small scale by design (which is not problematic nor am I belittling their games, but they very much do not have the influence and sales of a proper big budget title-- whether it causes future games utilize specific gameplay loops as they have is another matter).

Eventine said:
Not to write off the recent achievements of the Chinese game industry but truly innovative (and thus influential in a genre defining sense) gameplay titles are still far rarer compared to the West and Japan.

The way I see it, it is reasonable to say that the Chinese game industry overall is at an earlier stage of development, scale and funding than those in Japan or the West are, however I don't think "innovation" can be compared on equal terms, when much of the low hanging fruit for what is perceived by the general public as "innovation" has already been plucked by the game developers of decades past, meaning in general today it is harder for everyone to "innovate".
However it doesn't mean developers today (regardless of whether one is Chinese, Japanese, American, French) are less "innovative" than before, it just means there are only so many ways to be entertained with current technology and mediums of control.

GZDRefugee · Sep 23, 2024

Blitzo said:
I've played both of the games, I must say I don't quite see it.

I think one or two of the claymore users in Genshin sort of resemble the moveset of the claymore/greatsword moveset in Automata, but considering how many characters there are in Genshin (all of whom have some degree of unique combat movements) and the five weapon classes that exist in Genshin (including bow and spellcasting which doesn't exist in Automata), it really feels like a reach to say "pulled basically everything from Nier Automata".

The movement in Genshin is not particularly like Automata, either in terms of ground movement, getting up/down ladders, not to mention ways of getting around that don't exist in Automata (gliding, swimming, underwater).

At most one could say there are one or two instances of superficial similarities in a specific part of a moveset for a specific weapon for a specific character or two, and that it adapts the "carrying a weapon hovering behind the character model" thing, but apart from that there's not much similar, and both games are far more than merely those minor aesthetic traits.

Strangely, a lot of the friends that I recommended Automata to agreed with me when they played Genshin and Zenless. A couple of them even work in game dev and thought it was too much of a coincidence the feel was so similar. One thing they noticed right away was the dodge animation. That glide-on-the-ground-esque-motion dash and the time-slowed-dramatic-spin/cartwheel for perfect dodges. Another keen eyed individual pointed out the bullet deflect basically being Ninja Run from Metal Gear Rising (another amazing Platinum game btw).

Again, I'm not hating on the devs. They probably played some bangers from Platinum like Nier, MGR, DMC, Bayonetta and thought that was the coolest shit ever. If anything, that just demonstrates great taste in games and recognition of what is good game design.

Blitzo · Sep 24, 2024

GZDRefugee said:
Strangely, a lot of the friends that I recommended Automata to agreed with me when they played Genshin and Zenless. A couple of them even work in game dev and thought it was too much of a coincidence the feel was so similar. One thing they noticed right away was the dodge animation. That glide-on-the-ground-esque-motion dash and the time-slowed-dramatic-spin/cartwheel for perfect dodges. Another keen eyed individual pointed out the bullet deflect basically being Ninja Run from Metal Gear Rising (another amazing Platinum game btw).

Again, I'm not hating on the devs. They probably played some bangers from Platinum like Nier, MGR, DMC, Bayonetta and thought that was the coolest shit ever. If anything, that just demonstrates great taste in games and recognition of what is good game design.

Genshin doesn't have a time slow mechanic or cartwheel for perfect dodges (I think ZZZ might), nor a deflection mechanic, and the sprint mechanic in Genshin is nothing like Automata (the latter of which has the "glide on the ground" feel for part of the sprint which Genshin lacks).
I think you might be getting some of the games confused.

Anyway my overall point is that there are only very limited similarities in a couple of specific aesthetic elements between Genshin and Automata, and based on the course of the conversation I remain of the opinion that the original statement you said "Genshin pulled basically everything from Nier Automata" is not reflective of reality.

Eventine · Sep 24, 2024

Blitzo said:
I don't think that's a good question, because you make it sound like those old genre defining gameplay innovations were a reflection of some sort of magic sauce rather than the West and Japan being the only real players in the gameplay development space when video games were in their infancy.

Putting it another way, I'm arguing is that no one is particularly pushing out genre defining innovations in the last decade or so.

It can both be true that the West & Japan were beneficiaries of the "low hanging fruits" effect and that Chinese developers do not emphasize gameplay novelty and depth.

Blitzo said:
Extraction shooters can be argued to just be a derivative of usual FPS videogames, while the other two you mentioned are relatively indie and small scale by design (which is not problematic nor am I belittling their games, but they very much do not have the influence and sales of a proper big budget title-- whether it causes future games utilize specific gameplay loops as they have is another matter).

Extraction shooters have a novel gameplay loop around base -> killing -> looting -> extracting -> back to base. The primary gameplay incentive is greed (treasure, loot, wealth), not blood lust (as in traditional FPS). It also differentiates itself from traditional loot-based games by being designed around PVP, rather than PVE (like Diablo). It is actually an ingenious response to the “mindless killing” of traditional FPS games and how quickly that becomes stale.

"FPS" is way too broad of a definition to be considered derivative, and I'm not looking for Chinese developers to make fundamental innovations like "3D first person view" because that is indeed low hanging fruit. But I want to see more than taking the gameplay loop of an existing classic, putting it on mobile with Asian or anime aesthetics, and calling it done, as so many top Chinese games essentially boil down to.

Blitzo said:
The way I see it, it is reasonable to say that the Chinese game industry overall is at an earlier stage of development, scale and funding than those in Japan or the West are, however I don't think "innovation" can be compared on equal terms, when much of the low hanging fruit for what is perceived by the general public as "innovation" has already been plucked by the game developers of decades past, meaning in general today it is harder for everyone to "innovate".
However it doesn't mean developers today (regardless of whether one is Chinese, Japanese, American, French) are less "innovative" than before, it just means there are only so many ways to be entertained with current technology and mediums of control.

See above. It can both be true that there are less low hanging fruits, and Chinese developers are more prone to following successful formulas than striking out on their own.

Which, in my view, is the result of a cutthroat market environment, exacerbated by government regulations, that cause investors & developers both to be risk-averse. The industry will mature over time and realize, much as Chinese companies are starting to in other industries, that risk taking and R&D are actually necessary to be successful in the long-term; but it first has to be recognized.

Blitzo · Sep 24, 2024

Eventine said:
It can both be true that the West & Japan were beneficiaries of the "low hanging fruits" effect and that Chinese developers do not emphasize gameplay novelty and depth.

Eventine said:
See above. It can both be true that there are less low hanging fruits, and Chinese developers are more prone to following successful formulas than striking out on their own.

Which, in my view, is the result of a cutthroat market environment, exacerbated by government regulations, that cause investors & developers both to be risk-averse. The industry will mature over time and realize, much as Chinese companies are starting to in other industries, that risk taking and R&D are actually necessary to be successful in the long-term; but it first has to be recognized.

I think your statement of "both being true" can only occur if you can demonstrate Chinese developers of today are more prone to "following successful formulas" than developers of today from other nations, while also demonstrating that Chinese developers have reached a state of market and industry maturity in terms of both funding and marketspace.

All of which is to say, I think if one wants to compare "innovation" it has to be done in a way where:
1. It is cross sectional and occurs for entities during the same period of time
2. It compares apples and apples, where the degree of "innovation" is not affected by confounding factors (for game development purposes it can mean industry funding, market availability, equivalence of gaming platforms/hardware etc)

Considering no. 2 is not yet reached, IMO instead of making a statement about the specific "innovation" of the Chinese game development industry I think it would be more reasonable to say that overall they have yet to reach the maturity of that of Japan or the major players in western nations. If anything that would be a more all encompassing recognition that the overall industry still has major sectors to advance on, while also recognizing that "innovation" requires funding, market availability, and mastery of antecedent systems and mechanics to occur first.

Eventine said:
Extraction shooters have a novel gameplay loop around base -> killing -> looting -> extracting -> back to base. The primary gameplay incentive is greed (treasure, loot, wealth), not blood lust (as in traditional FPS). It also differentiates itself from traditional loot-based games by being designed around PVP, rather than PVE (like Diablo). That is its novelty.

"FPS" is way too broad of a definition to be considered derivative, and I'm not looking for Chinese developers to make fundamental innovations like "3D first person view" because that is indeed low hanging fruit. But I want to see more than taking the gameplay loop of an existing classic, putting it on mobile with Asian or anime aesthetics, and calling it done, as so many top Chinese games essentially boil down to.

I somewhat disagree with this -- that is like calling hero shooters, team on team shooters, extraction shooters, MOBA shooters, horde shooters, battle royale shooters, as all being unique gameplay loops. I would very much call these iterative rather than "innovative".

If those can be considered as having novel gameplay loops, then I would call something like Wukong to be just as uniquely differentiated from Dark Souls which is in turn differentiated from Sekiro and in turn Elden Ring.

solarz · Sep 24, 2024

Eventine said:
Dyson Sphere is one of a kind, but Genshin copied most of its mechanics from Breath of the Wild, and as you said it yourself, Portia is basically 3D Stardew Valley, while Black Myth: Wukong is similar to Lies of P (from South Korea) in being an incremental improvement on existing "Souls like" action games (though it is probably closest to God of War in inspiration).

Game design innovation does not come from coding skills, but from devoting time & effort to design iteration. Game design, in my observation, is still a young industry in China, and Chinese game designers tend to be more derivative because historically, derivative games were highly successful (see two of the most successful games in China - Honor of Kings, basically a League of Legends clone on mobile; and Player Unknown Battle Grounds Mobile, whose name speaks for itself).

For China's game industry to get out of this pattern, Chinese gamers need to develop more sophisticated demands than AAA production quality and marketing. And we know it can be done because Japan is actually the source of a lot of gameplay innovation in recent decades. So it should be possible for China to do more in this space. Think one reason why it doesn't happen more is also government regulations - the limited number of approvals per year kind of limits more experimental games.

One of the most original games I've played in recent memory is Tale of Immortal.

It sounds to me that you are just unfamiliar with Chinese games.

GZDRefugee · Sep 24, 2024

Blitzo said:
Genshin doesn't have a time slow mechanic or cartwheel for perfect dodges (I think ZZZ might), nor a deflection mechanic, and the sprint mechanic in Genshin is nothing like Automata (the latter of which has the "glide on the ground" feel for part of the sprint which Genshin lacks).
I think you might be getting some of the games confused.

Spin/cartwheel perfect dodges are now in Genshin. Time slow on perfect dodge and deflecting are indeed from Zenless. The sprint mechanic in Genshin vs Nier is kinda nitpicky because prior to 1.1 the bind for dodge and sprint were the same on controller, the same as Nier.

Blitzo said:
Anyway my overall point is that there are only very limited similarities in a couple of specific aesthetic elements between Genshin and Automata, and based on the course of the conversation I remain of the opinion that the original statement you said "Genshin pulled basically everything from Nier Automata" is not reflective of reality.

Neither Nier nor Genshin set an example for open world and progression so I'm not going to address them. On the other hand, Platinum absolutely did set an example with movement and combat compared to other third person action games at the time. You can see how their design choices inspired mechanics in Genshin, Zenless, and a plethora of other games afterwards.

You mentioned Genshin's character switch mechanic. But what about the ability to switch mid-combo between any 2 of 25 possible weapon loadouts and any 3 of 17^3 pod combinations in Nier? That's on top of 2.1 unique movesets.

Movement wise, Genshin has aquatic activities over Nier. Swimming was at launch but underwater content was added later. However on land and in the air, Nier has a direct analogue to anything Genshin has.

Note how the standout aspects of moment to moment gameplay in Nier was borrowed and iterated upon by Mihoyo in their games.

Chinese Video/Computer Games

Blitzo

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vincent

Grumpy Old Man

Eventine

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Blitzo

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GZDRefugee

Junior Member

Blitzo

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Eventine

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Blitzo

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solarz

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GZDRefugee

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