Chinese Video/Computer Games

Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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GZDRefugee said:
Spin/cartwheel perfect dodges are now in Genshin. Time slow on perfect dodge and deflecting are indeed from Zenless. The sprint mechanic in Genshin vs Nier is kinda nitpicky because prior to 1.1 the bind for dodge and sprint were the same on controller, the same as Nier.
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Which spin/cartwheel perfect dodge is in Genshin? I'm genuinely not sure what you are referring to.
Genshin has a dash dodge which can work as a "perfect dodge" but it is a rather generic dodge system that has no particular similarity to Nier Automata and there is no spin/cartwheel. As far as I know, no cartwheel dodge in Genshin (unless there exists a specific character on the roster who may have a cartwheel/spin dodge as a unique skill)


GZDRefugee said:
Neither Nier nor Genshin set an example for open world and progression so I'm not going to address them. On the other hand, Platinum absolutely did set an example with movement and combat compared to other third person action games at the time. You can see how their design choices inspired mechanics in Genshin, Zenless, and a plethora of other games afterwards.

You mentioned Genshin's character switch mechanic. But what about the ability to switch mid-combo between any 2 of 25 possible weapon loadouts and any 3 of 17^3 pod combinations in Nier? That's on top of 2.1 unique movesets.

Movement wise, Genshin has aquatic activities over Nier. Swimming was at launch but underwater content was added later. However on land and in the air, Nier has a direct analogue to anything Genshin has.

Note how the standout aspects of moment to moment gameplay in Nier was borrowed and iterated upon by Mihoyo in their games.
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I'm not sure what this is meant to indicate -- my argument isn't comparing between Nier Automata and Genshin as to which is a superior game -- as a single purchase, self contained game with a proper skill tree, I would put Automata above Genshin every day of the week.

(I also don't know why you are citing my statement about the character swap mechanic here -- it is completely irrelevant to our discussion because I wrote that as part of the discussion with Eventine about the role that game mechanic iteration plays in game development, where Genshin was an example he had nominated as being a copy of Breath of the Wild. I was arguing that actually Genshin was not a simple copy of BoTW and has sufficient unique and distinctive traits including the character swap mechanic, that it deserved to be considered unique in its own right.)


I feel like this discussion is losing the plot a little, and while the games aren't ones I particularly feel strongly about, the sheer strangeness of the statement is what has caused me to continue.
After the conversation that's occurred, do you stand by what you wrote before: "Genshin pulled basically everything from Nier Automata"?
If you retract it, then no worries, we can end it here. And as I wrote from the beginning, there are one or two minor aesthetic similarities for specific character weapon movements and the weapon-floating-behind-character thing, so you're not incorrect to say that there are some similarities between Genshin and Automata.
If you maintain it, then I'd be genuinely confused as to how you can justify and back it up.
 
E

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Blitzo said:
I think your statement of "both being true" can only occur if you can demonstrate Chinese developers of today are more prone to "following successful formulas" than developers of today from other nations, while also demonstrating that Chinese developers have reached a state of market and industry maturity in terms of both funding and marketspace.

All of which is to say, I think if one wants to compare "innovation" it has to be done in a way where:
1. It is cross sectional and occurs for entities during the same period of time
2. It compares apples and apples, where the degree of "innovation" is not affected by confounding factors (for game development purposes it can mean industry funding, market availability, equivalence of gaming platforms/hardware etc)

Considering no. 2 is not yet reached, IMO instead of making a statement about the specific "innovation" of the Chinese game development industry I think it would be more reasonable to say that overall they have yet to reach the maturity of that of Japan or the major players in western nations. If anything that would be a more all encompassing recognition that the overall industry still has major sectors to advance on, while also recognizing that "innovation" requires funding, market availability, and mastery of antecedent systems and mechanics to occur first.
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I think we are talking past each other.

I'm saying Chinese games are less innovative at the gameplay level compared to Western and Japanese games today. I'm not saying this would be true regardless of everything else being equal. I understand that differing industry conditions are to blame for Chinese developers' reluctance to invest more in gameplay innovation. But that is also why the Chinese games industry is not yet ready to dominate the market.

Blitzo said:
I somewhat disagree with this -- that is like calling hero shooters, team on team shooters, extraction shooters, MOBA shooters, horde shooters, battle royale shooters, as all being unique gameplay loops. I would very much call these iterative rather than "innovative".

If those can be considered as having novel gameplay loops, then I would call something like Wukong to be just as uniquely differentiated from Dark Souls which is in turn differentiated from Sekiro and in turn Elden Ring.
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I don't see how you can say this. Black Myth: Wukong's core gameplay loop is exactly the same as other action games (= start a level -> explore -> fight trash monsters -> fight boss -> upgrade character -> go to next level). While extraction shooters (= start a level -> kill NPCs / other players for loot -> try to hide / stealth / survive with loot while others hunt you -> extract out to base -> sell stuff / prepare for next level) are obviously different from classic FPS (= start a level -> race for power ups / weapons -> kill other players until they're all dead -> next level).

The real test of innovation is, funny enough, quite crude - if a game creates its own genre/sub-genre, then its novelty is proven. If not, then the burden of proof is much higher.

There are clearly Western / Japanese games that fall into this category (Phasmophobia, Escape from Tarkov, Demon Souls, Player Unknown Battlegrounds, Dwarf Fortress, Factorio, Minecraft, etc.) It is no shame to admit that Chinese games aren't there yet due to industry conditions.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Eventine said:
Dyson Sphere is one of a kind, but Genshin copied most of its mechanics from Breath of the Wild, and as you said it yourself, Portia is basically 3D Stardew Valley, while Black Myth: Wukong is similar to Lies of P (from South Korea) in being an incremental improvement on existing "Souls like" action games (though it is probably closest to God of War in inspiration).
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Wii game can't be compared to PC or mobile, human machine interface and monetization are totally different. live service vs. one time sale is totally different. community management is totally different. Influence is not copying, thanks.
Eventine said:
Game design innovation does not come from coding skills, but from devoting time & effort to design iteration. Game design, in my observation, is still a young industry in China, and Chinese game designers tend to be more derivative because historically, derivative games were highly successful (see two of the most successful games in China - Honor of Kings, basically a League of Legends clone on mobile; and Player Unknown Battle Grounds Mobile, whose name speaks for itself).
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basically a different way of saying just be an incumbent.
Eventine said:
For China's game industry to get out of this pattern, Chinese gamers need to develop more sophisticated demands than AAA production quality and marketing. And we know it can be done because Japan is actually the source of a lot of gameplay innovation in recent decades. So it should be possible for China to do more in this space. Think one reason why it doesn't happen more is also government regulations - the limited number of approvals per year kind of limits more experimental games.
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lmao holy shit. the purpose of a game is to be entertaining and hopefully make money. Otherwise you get shit like Dustborn. Very innovative, I admit I've never seen anything like it... and probably won't again.

On the basis of being entertaining, and hopefully making money, then you can think about innovation.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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Eventine said:
I think we are talking past each other.

I'm saying Chinese games are less innovative at the gameplay level compared to Western and Japanese games today. I'm not saying this would be true regardless of everything else being equal. I understand that differing industry conditions are to blame for Chinese developers' reluctance to invest more in gameplay innovation. But that is also why the Chinese games industry is not yet ready to dominate the market.
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I think the focus should less be on the word "innovation" -- which to be honest I think is a rather useless word in all industries whether it's game development, civilian industries, or military development -- and more on "prerequisites of advancement".

AKA: mastery of antecedent systems, funding system, and customer/market.



Eventine said:
I don't see how you can say this. Black Myth: Wukong's core gameplay loop is exactly the same as other action games (= start a level -> explore -> fight trash monsters -> fight boss -> upgrade character -> go to next level). While extraction shooters (= start a level -> kill NPCs / other players for loot -> try to hide / stealth / survive with loot while others hunt you -> extract out to base -> sell stuff / prepare for next level) are obviously different from classic FPS (= start a level -> race for power ups / weapons -> kill other players until they're all dead -> next level).
Click to expand...

To me, important differentiators of the gameplay loop for action games are extent of weapons variety, penalties of death, level and world design/explorability (or lack of), frequency of bosses, resource/stamina management, which I consider to be as important as whether you're trying to hide/survive with loot and then prepare for the next level for a shooter.

Otherwise, I could call any shooter game down to "kill others" and "don't let others kill you" which would be just as absurd.



Eventine said:
The real test of innovation is, funny enough, quite crude - if a game creates its own genre/sub-genre, then its novelty is proven. If not, then the burden of proof is much higher.

There are clearly Western / Japanese games that fall into this category (Phasmophobia, Escape from Tarkov, Demon Souls, Player Unknown Battlegrounds, Dwarf Fortress, Factorio, Minecraft, etc.) It is no shame to admit that Chinese games aren't there yet.
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I can agree that a game that initiates a genre means it is one which happens to be both novel and successful (the latter being arguably more important).
If that is specifically what you meant in your original post about gameplay mechanic "innovation," IMO, I think while it could be neat for bragging rights, I don't think it is necessarily related to AAA game "innovation". In fact, I can't think of the last AAA game in recent years that happened to be genre defining, and I would say AAA game innovation is about having good (not necessarily novel) gameplay mechanics with good production value that feels fresh as a whole package.

(That said, I also disagree with the idea that western or Japanese AAA games are lacking in "innovation". People were previously conflating "DEI" with "lack of innovation" which is ridiculous)

FairAndUnbiased said:
Wii game can't be compared to PC or mobile, human machine interface and monetization are totally different. live service vs. one time sale is totally different. community management is totally different. Influence is not copying, thanks.
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If you're talking about Breath of the Wild, BoTW is not on the Wii, it is a game on Nintendo Switch, which can be considered to be just a console.
And Genshin is a game that is playable on console, PC, and mobile -- and in the past they announced it for Nintendo Switch as well (but the system is probably not powerful enough to support it).

That said, I agree with the rest of course, in that Genshin has enough of both its gameplay mechanics and overall system and business/update model to be considered unique and considered independently.
 
B

BlackWindMnt

Captain
Registered Member
Eventine said:
Assuming China intends to fill this vacuum, it needs to be investing in gameplay innovation and not just better graphics & music. The latter are surely important in the AAA competition but gameplay is still king in the long stretch. Most Chinese games today are imitative on the gameplay side and the depth of gameplay is often lacking.
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Most core things when it comes to gameplay has been done and will be imitation. Thats why you had all those sort of gimmicky things that last decade(wii, vr, kinect, etc) to create new gameplay experience. Just doing gameplay well should be good enough, I think China's main advantage is its history, culture, stories, settings etc. Its something different and new for global gamers than say Europe based medieval fantasy, WW2 or Global war on Terror settings most of use have played for decades.
 
I

Index

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Eventine said:
Dyson Sphere is one of a kind, but Genshin copied most of its mechanics from Breath of the Wild,
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No? You might as well say they copied from star wars outlaws because both are open world. Genshin has both singleplayer AAA, live service aspects and the combat is quite unique.
Eventine said:
and as you said it yourself, Portia is basically 3D Stardew Valley,
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And reimagining a genre from 2D to 3D or vice versa is massive innovation, I don't think you quite grasp it. Hollow knight is in the same vein dark souls translated from 3D to 2D and it was also a massive gameplay innovation.
Eventine said:
while Black Myth: Wukong is similar to Lies of P (from South Korea) in being an incremental improvement on existing "Souls like" action games (though it is probably closest to God of War in inspiration).
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It was in development before Lies of P, so that would be vice versa. However they're both soulslikes.
Eventine said:
Game design innovation does not come from coding skills, but from devoting time & effort to design iteration. Game design, in my observation, is still a young industry in China, and Chinese game designers tend to be more derivative because historically, derivative games were highly successful (see two of the most successful games in China - Honor of Kings, basically a League of Legends clone on mobile; and Player Unknown Battle Grounds Mobile, whose name speaks for itself).

For China's game industry to get out of this pattern, Chinese gamers need to develop more sophisticated demands than AAA production quality and marketing. And we know it can be done because Japan is actually the source of a lot of gameplay innovation in recent decades.
Click to expand...
Like the above AAA examples illustrate, China is probably alongside Japan the major drivers of gameplay innovation in the current era.

I mean what has US companies delivered in terms of gameplay innovation? Ubisoft engine open world game no30 and Bethesda loading screen world.
Eventine said:
So it should be possible for China to do more in this space. Think one reason why it doesn't happen more is also government regulations - the limited number of approvals per year kind of limits more experimental games.
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What is your source for that? There's so many random experimental games from China.

Objectively speaking, it's the size of the teams that are a problem. There needs to be more allied staff, for refining graphics, motion capping, collaboration with famous VAs and models etc. Gameplay innovation is already near a cap. If a game like Dyson or Portia had larger teams, they would be potential breakthrough projects.

BMW was a breakthrough project precisely because it had opportunity for more collaborations and marketing. But it could always have even more.
 
Staedler

Staedler

Junior Member
Registered Member
GZDRefugee said:
Spin/cartwheel perfect dodges are now in Genshin. Time slow on perfect dodge and deflecting are indeed from Zenless. The sprint mechanic in Genshin vs Nier is kinda nitpicky because prior to 1.1 the bind for dodge and sprint were the same on controller, the same as Nier.


Neither Nier nor Genshin set an example for open world and progression so I'm not going to address them. On the other hand, Platinum absolutely did set an example with movement and combat compared to other third person action games at the time. You can see how their design choices inspired mechanics in Genshin, Zenless, and a plethora of other games afterwards.

You mentioned Genshin's character switch mechanic. But what about the ability to switch mid-combo between any 2 of 25 possible weapon loadouts and any 3 of 17^3 pod combinations in Nier? That's on top of 2.1 unique movesets.

Movement wise, Genshin has aquatic activities over Nier. Swimming was at launch but underwater content was added later. However on land and in the air, Nier has a direct analogue to anything Genshin has.

Note how the standout aspects of moment to moment gameplay in Nier was borrowed and iterated upon by Mihoyo in their games.
Click to expand...
The spin/cartwheel dodge has been a thing for Mihoyo since Honkai Impact 3rd which they released in 2016. Nier Automata was released in 2017. So was the character switching system.

Genshin is a Honkai Impact 3rd that substitutes active fighter mechanics for elemental. Now whether HI3 copies an even earlier system is another matter, but it certainly wasn't Mihoyo copying Nier Automata.
 
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