Chinese UAV/UCAV development

DennisFetters · Jul 2, 2013

Hendrik_2000 said:
Welcome Dennis I remember clearly I post an article about your work in China and someone here make sarcastic remark about a story from Wiki that you were pursuit by law suit in US because of failed experimental UAV. I did defend your honor by saying that only thru making mistake can people advance. Case in Point Steve Job with his Lisa and Macintosh.

Please provide us with the your side of the story thank a bunch and let those skeptic know

Well thank you. Actually, that UAV worked and passed the customers expectations and he accepted delivery after the successful demonstration. I was the one that filed the lawsuit because I finished that first UAV and delivered it, and the buyer (Chinese American) didn't pay me the balance he owed. It took 5 years but I won the lawsuit. You do have to be more carful doing business with "some" Chinese, but in general they live up to their contracts.

But, I figure I have about a 2 million dollar education by now from the "school of hard knocks", so I have had my share of mistakes. (or miscalculations, as they say in China.... never a mistake!!)

DennisFetters · Jul 2, 2013

Jeff Head said:
Welcone aboard, Dennis!

GREAT work on the SVU-200! I especially like this video, which includes numerous tests leading up to autonomous flight.

Very interesting comparison of the SUV-200 to the Grumman MQ-8 Fire Scout shown here testing aboard the USS McInerney, a US Navy Oliver Hazard Perry Class guided missile frigate.

The Fire Scout has since been deployed to Aghanistan and other places, particularly at sea taking part in anti-piracy operations.

Do you see the SVU-200, or a larger, follow-on project developing into this type of capability in China?

Hello Jeff,

Thank you for the welcome.

There was no intention for the SVU-200 to look like the Fire Scout. Once you do the study to obtain the best aerodynamic shape for speed and hovering wind resistance stability, that shape is the result. Inside, they are absolutely two different machines. Once I'm able to post here, I can put up some pictures.

Our FCS already has the ability to land on moving objects, as well.

I don't think there will be much of a future for the SVU-200. The company I built it for seems to not be aggressively able to complete the production process sine I left after my contract was over. That's too bad.

However, the new company called Ewatt will allow me to build my latest 300kg payload capable UAV helicopter from the ground up, and all the way through production. It will be a far better design than the SUV-200. So yes, I do foresee a range of capabilities such as missions that the Fire Scout is now capable of, and maybe more.

Busy days ahead....

Blackstone · Jul 2, 2013

DennisFetters said:
Thank you.

I use local Chinese engineers. I have to train them from the ground up about helicopter design. That is probably harder than just designing the helicopter by myself, in fact, but I need the help. There is always a language barrier for the technical terms of hardware and materials that take about 1.5 years per Chinese engineer to overcome.

How's the quality of local engineering talents? We keep hearing from the usual suspects (WSJ, Big 3 networks, CNN, Foxnews, European new agencies) that Chinese innovation is sub-par, what's the reality?

DennisFetters · Jul 2, 2013

Blackstone said:
How's the quality of local engineering talents? We keep hearing from the usual suspects (WSJ, Big 3 networks, CNN, Foxnews, European new agencies) that Chinese innovation is sub-par, what's the reality?

I would say that is a two sided story.

On one hand, Chinese have the talent to send men (and woman) into space. It is basically copied from the Rooskees, but even that is a monumental task that only three nations have ever accomplished.

Then, on the other hand....... I have tried for five days now to explain to them how to fix my "real" toilet that was installed in my new apartment wrong. (they just silicone-glued the toilet to the ground over the hole with no mounting flange on the hole and no seal and no bolts holding it all in place to the ground.) There solution was more silicone glue. So, for the second time in two different apartments in two different towns in two different states in China, I'm having to buy the parts, roll up my sleeves and clean the accumulated crap from under it and install it correctly.

The problems here as I see it is a separation of class. There is a serious competition for Student to get into the Universities, and the Universities are very picky as to whom they allow in, and that is only the smartest small percentage. Those lucky enough for the higher education are to be the future engineers and management-type personnel. All the rest are laborers or self-employed. There is a problem with students trying to kill themselves if they don't make the University.

This means that the engineers have no hands-on experience, nor ever get the opportunity for it. They can design or copy a part, but no idea how to manufacture that part. All the work is categorized and issued out to separate classes of workers. The result is that everything has to be a team effort with no one person having the full knowledge or experience of how to do the complete job.

That is not how I do business. I want engineers that don't mind getting their hand dirty, so that's how I teach them. I make it mandatory for them to go out into the shop with me and I teach them how to run a milling machine and lathe, and how to work metal. I get them to assemble the aircraft themselves and expand their abilities and knowledge.

I was a tool & Die maker before I became an aircraft designer and manufacturer. That way I know the best way to design a part for easy manufacturing. That double talent is almost non existent here in China. But, China is still a developing country, and has all the ability to overtake the world both economically and in technology in the next 10 years, like it or not. Just give them the time, just like the USA did when it was developing 120 years ago.

rhino123 · Jul 2, 2013

DennisFetters said:
I would say that is a two sided story.

On one hand, Chinese have the talent to send men (and woman) into space. It is basically copied from the Rooskees, but even that is a monumental task that only three nations have ever accomplished.

Then, on the other hand....... I have tried for five days now to explain to them how to fix my "real" toilet that was installed in my new apartment wrong. (they just silicone-glued the toilet to the ground over the hole with no mounting flange on the hole and no seal and no bolts holding it all in place to the ground.) There solution was more silicone glue. So, for the second time in two different apartments in two different towns in two different states in China, I'm having to buy the parts, roll up my sleeves and clean the accumulated crap from under it and install it correctly.

The problems here as I see it is a separation of class. There is a serious competition for Student to get into the Universities, and the Universities are very picky as to whom they allow in, and that is only the smartest small percentage. Those lucky enough for the higher education are to be the future engineers and management-type personnel. All the rest are laborers or self-employed. There is a problem with students trying to kill themselves if they don't make the University.

This means that the engineers have no hands-on experience, nor ever get the opportunity for it. They can design or copy a part, but no idea how to manufacture that part. All the work is categorized and issued out to separate classes of workers. The result is that everything has to be a team effort with no one person having the full knowledge or experience of how to do the complete job.

That is not how I do business. I want engineers that don't mind getting their hand dirty, so that's how I teach them. I make it mandatory for them to go out into the shop with me and I teach them how to run a milling machine and lathe, and how to work metal. I get them to assemble the aircraft themselves and expand their abilities and knowledge.

I was a tool & Die maker before I became an aircraft designer and manufacturer. That way I know the best way to design a part for easy manufacturing. That double talent is almost non existent here in China. But, China is still a developing country, and has all the ability to overtake the world both economically and in technology in the next 10 years, like it or not. Just give them the time, just like the USA did when it was developing 120 years ago.

Well said.

That is exactly how I felt with my experiences with the Chinese in mainland China (I frequently travel to China in support of my company's product). Although I am not an aircraft designer and the product of my company is small and easy to assemble as compared to a real aircraft, but I am seeing the same attitude of the Chinese.

And if I may add... I do have this experience that the Chinese are a different breed of people unlike what I have encountered with my US colleagues and Singaporean colleagues... for example, I witness the project manager of a project that was to be done with my company having to personally beg (literally) for engineers from different department to attend to a meeting that we have requested. My experience with the US engineers and Singapore engineers (however) was that, when the project manager requested a meeting (giving a time), everyone will be there on time no question asked....

I believe that attitude would also be a problem when working with them, yes?

no_name · Jul 2, 2013

I visited an Australian company that design and manufacture antennas with production center in China (Guanzhou to be exact, the university is huge and modern). Their managers described pretty much the same problems. Because the people doing the design and people doing the manufacturing operating independent of each other without really understanding what the others are doing, you get suppliers and makers trying to implement 'their own fix/substitutes' to a product. They sometimes replace materials used or alter the manufacturing process since from their point of view there is no noticeable difference, but because they had little knowledge in how the things they're making are intended to be used, you sometimes get unexpected behaviours. There was also complaints that they never follow written regulations to the T. They will do it 70-80%, but they will never go 100%. If you point out the 20-30% deficiencies during your check, the next time they will do those 20-30% right but go wrong on some other 20-30%

What I think is those studying to be engineers and designers need to have hands on experience and tours of the manufacturing process, while the technicians and workers need to learn to follow regulations and guidelines to the T. And this has to be drill in while they are still in University, not just studying the theory. There should be practical/design courses, and these should count towards the final mark.

kwaigonegin · Jul 3, 2013

DennisFetters said:
I would say that is a two sided story.

On one hand, Chinese have the talent to send men (and woman) into space. It is basically copied from the Rooskees, but even that is a monumental task that only three nations have ever accomplished.

Then, on the other hand....... I have tried for five days now to explain to them how to fix my "real" toilet that was installed in my new apartment wrong. (they just silicone-glued the toilet to the ground over the hole with no mounting flange on the hole and no seal and no bolts holding it all in place to the ground.) There solution was more silicone glue. So, for the second time in two different apartments in two different towns in two different states in China, I'm having to buy the parts, roll up my sleeves and clean the accumulated crap from under it and install it correctly.

Could it be due to the fact that the guys you hired originally came from the rural villages had no clue about commodes? I may be mistaken but isn't most 'toilets' in China the in ground kind where you have to squad?

At any rate I definitely see where you are coming from. Like you said, I think this is more of a class issue than anything. Their educational system (K-12) is partly responsible for that type of mentality a well. Not saying it's better or worst but it is what it is.

vesicles · Jul 3, 2013

rhino123 said:
And if I may add... I do have this experience that the Chinese are a different breed of people unlike what I have encountered with my US colleagues and Singaporean colleagues... for example, I witness the project manager of a project that was to be done with my company having to personally beg (literally) for engineers from different department to attend to a meeting that we have requested. My experience with the US engineers and Singapore engineers (however) was that, when the project manager requested a meeting (giving a time), everyone will be there on time no question asked....

I believe that attitude would also be a problem when working with them, yes?

I think that may have something to do with how the managing hierarchy is structured. When a project manager manages only projects but not people, they get little respect as they can't hold the people accountable for what they do. They would behave completely differently when their own dept managers tell them to do something. I think this is inherent in a lot of companies, Chinese or not. Before grad school, I worked at a pharmaceutical company in Texas and I've encountered similar issues with an almost entirely Caucasian crew. It's all about how the company is structured, as well as the culture within the company.

vesicles · Jul 3, 2013

kwaigonegin said:
Like you said, I think this is more of a class issue than anything. Their educational system (K-12) is partly responsible for that type of mentality a well. Not saying it's better or worst but it is what it is.

I think this issue mainly stems from the ferocious competition in schools. Because it is so important to get into colleges in China and such a large student body in high school trying to squeeze into a relatively small number of the colleges, competition becomes so ferocious. In such case, students/parents/teachers have to focus on the one thing that will give them the biggest return: grades. And this mentality has been so entrenched in their minds, everything else becomes less important.

The same thing happens in the States in Medical schools. Because of the incredible competition (average college GPA for a typical entering class of Med school students is ~3.8-3.9 out of total of 4.0) , the college students trying to enter medical school tend to focus more on grades and less on everything else. You can immediately tell, among a full class of college students, who is in pre-Med. These students tend to roll their eyes and complain a lot when they are required to do a hands-on project since in their mind, these projects have little to do with their GPA. They get more motivated when being told that the project would take up 40% of their final grades. And once in Med school, you can immediately tell that they have had little hands-on experience while in college. Although most of them majored in biology or something similar, which means they have taken biology lab courses, most of them don't even know how to hold a micro-pipetter or how to place a Petri dish in an incubator.

therefore, in my opinion, it has little to do with cultures (East vs. West, etc), but has everything to do with the level of competition, which forces one to prioritize.

vincent · Jul 3, 2013

no_name said:
I visited an Australian company that design and manufacture antennas with production center in China (Guanzhou to be exact, the university is huge and modern). Their managers described pretty much the same problems. Because the people doing the design and people doing the manufacturing operating independent of each other without really understanding what the others are doing, you get suppliers and makers trying to implement 'their own fix/substitutes' to a product. They sometimes replace materials used or alter the manufacturing process since from their point of view there is no noticeable difference, but because they had little knowledge in how the things they're making are intended to be used, you sometimes get unexpected behaviours. There was also complaints that they never follow written regulations to the T. They will do it 70-80%, but they will never go 100%. If you point out the 20-30% deficiencies during your check, the next time they will do those 20-30% right but go wrong on some other 20-30%

What I think is those studying to be engineers and designers need to have hands on experience and tours of the manufacturing process, while the technicians and workers need to learn to follow regulations and guidelines to the T. And this has to be drill in while they are still in University, not just studying the theory. There should be practical/design courses, and these should count towards the final mark.

A girl who own an air conditioning factory in Guangdong once told me that one of the modules suppose to have one hole in it for the wires to go through. The factory floor people decided three holes are better and went ahead with the change without telling her. Completely pissed her off

Chinese UAV/UCAV development

DennisFetters

Just Hatched

DennisFetters

Just Hatched

Blackstone

Brigadier

DennisFetters

Just Hatched

rhino123

Pencil Pusher

no_name

Colonel

kwaigonegin

Colonel

vesicles

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vesicles

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vincent

Grumpy Old Man