Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

PrOeLiTeZ said:

L-15 can also be used as a short range light fighter, for the africans. its a trainer and fighter, so they save on purchasing 2 seperate aircrafts. You can see that China tends to export some of its hardware before its inducted in their own. Howziters are perfect example. One of my possible thoughts are that they export hardware and let other countries use it to see how it goes in combat, (since china currently isnt in any) and recieves feedback and then further modifies it then inducts it in their inventory. this thought is only for some military platforms though.

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Yes but the L-15 is VERY expensive for a trainer, in the same league as the Korean T-50 which the UAE said was too expensive. For a light attack aircraft there are MUCH more cost effective options, the L-15's price potential tag has been put only a million or two away from the FC-1 which is a far more capable aircraft, even the JL-9 might even be a better option for that role given its larger size.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Who said the receivers were paying full price or paying at all? Could be part of an "aid package".

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

RedMercury said:

Who said the receivers were paying full price or paying at all? Could be part of an "aid package".

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China has never included military aircraft as part of an aid package in Africa as far as I know (small arms and other ground equipment yes but not fighter aircraft). An example of this is the Namibia (one of the poorer countriest in Africa) sale of F-7NG fighter who paid $215 million for them. Such practices probably would not start anytime soon.

It just does not make sense to even try to market these aircraft to 3rd world countries. Most have little to no experience with twin engine aircraft, there is just not a demand for it, even at around $15 million (estimated price) each for a very light attack aircraft (since there is obviously no need for LIFT trainers in such countries).

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

Hmm, this article is throwing out a lot of question marks. I can see Venezuela but what are African countries going to be doing with a highly advance LIFT trainer thats probably more advanced than anything they currently field? These are the same countries who only afew YEARS ago were buying J-7 variants. An attack/multi-role variant has never been announced, nor does the article make mention of such variants. Also talk of the L-15 going into mass production is strange as it has, as far as I know, not recieved orders domestically and in fact some high-ups in the PLAAF did not like how reliant it was on foriegn components.

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Egypt is African, and the only country in Africa I can see being interested in the L15.

But this new is very out of the blue, and I would not take it as fact without a lot more confirmation.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

Yes but the L-15 is VERY expensive for a trainer, in the same league as the Korean T-50 which the UAE said was too expensive. For a light attack aircraft there are MUCH more cost effective options, the L-15's price potential tag has been put only a million or two away from the FC-1 which is a far more capable aircraft, even the JL-9 might even be a better option for that role given its larger size.

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T-50 is far more expensive than L-15, I think it's like in the 25 million range. But L-15 does suffer in the cost department when compared to JL-9, which seems to have caught on with PLAAF a lot more. Notice how L-15 haven't received a J yet?

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

tphuang said:

T-50 is far more expensive than L-15, I think it's like in the 25 million range. But L-15 does suffer in the cost department when compared to JL-9, which seems to have caught on with PLAAF a lot more. Notice how L-15 haven't received a J yet?

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Well I mean't in terms of capabilities, I think the last rough estimate was ¥150 million each? Not as much as the MB-346 or the T-50 but not by much frankly which makes me question the article since it seems rather odd that such an advanced, twin engine, light, LIFT trainer would even be marketed to places that really do not have the capability to maintain or even the need for such aircraft. Venezuela perhaps, there has always been some talk of interest in the L-15 but nowadays it seems Venezuela is more niterested in the L-15 more than the PLAAF itself.

What I really want to know is what the article means by 'orders' and 'mass production'. Do they mean mass induction into the PLAAF or simply a small test order delivered with the infrastructure set in place for more 'mass' production, because IIRC there was talk last year that the PLAAF already had inducted a small number (4 I think) of JL-9s last year.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

Well I mean't in terms of capabilities, I think the last rough estimate was ¥150 million each? Not as much as the MB-346 or the T-50 but not by much frankly which makes me question the article since it seems rather odd that such an advanced, twin engine, light, LIFT trainer would even be marketed to places that really do not have the capability to maintain or even the need for such aircraft. Venezuela perhaps, there has always been some talk of interest in the L-15 but nowadays it seems Venezuela is more niterested in the L-15 more than the PLAAF itself.

What I really want to know is what the article means by 'orders' and 'mass production'. Do they mean mass induction into the PLAAF or simply a small test order delivered with the infrastructure set in place for more 'mass' production, because IIRC there was talk last year that the PLAAF already had inducted a small number (4 I think) of JL-9s last year.

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It's always appeared to me that PLAAF had no interest in L-15, because it never got the J in front of it and Hongdu never talked about getting PLAAF orders either. I think it's due to a combination of being more expensive, slower developing and less localized than JL-9. Especially after JL-9 improved from its original design, I think PLAAF is quite pleased with it.

mass production means anything more than 10 per year I think.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

tphuang said:

It's always appeared to me that PLAAF had no interest in L-15, because it never got the J in front of it and Hongdu never talked about getting PLAAF orders either. I think it's due to a combination of being more expensive, slower developing and less localized than JL-9. Especially after JL-9 improved from its original design, I think PLAAF is quite pleased with it.

mass production means anything more than 10 per year I think.

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Thats what it seems to me as well. I think if the JL-9 had just incorporated with a basic triple redundant FBW to begin with, it would probably have been a clear winner already (especially given the slow pace the L-15 is still going through, it seems Guizhou's 3 year rush to to get the JL-9 ready may not have been entirely necessary). I think most of the hype around the L-15 is mostly internet partisanship. Many Chinese BBS posters prefer the L-15 because they consider it the most advaced trainer available and therefore superior to the JL-9 which is based on the old J-7; regardless of the aircraft's intended role... or even all around abilities for that matter. I think with all this talk of the WP-14 and even the WS-12 (from even slooooooooooow sources like Jane's) really seals the deal for the future of the JL-9 since nobody in the Ukraine or China seems interesting in working on an improved AL-222K-25F

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

The JL-9 and go into production?

The JL-9 won the L-15?

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

I don't think L-15 is dismissed completely, but it's definitely not in favour right now. It seems to have fallen off because it was slow in development, has a lot of foreign content and probably didn't fulfill PLAAF requirement as advertised. And I think part of it is because JL-9 has done a lot better than expected.