Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

gelgoog said:

Russia is developing the VK-800 engine for the UTS-800 and LMS-901 aircraft at Ural Civil Aviation Plant. This is an 800 hp engine.
If that gets developed it is an engine which can possibly be used.

Russia is also developing a VK-650 engine which could be used on a DART-450 derivative.

I do not aware about recent Chinese programs in this engine class. But there must be something since from what I know China is interested in replacing the CJ-6.

Theoretically they can convert an helicopter engine into a turboshaft. For example the 848 hp WZ-8 engine used in the Z-9. This is something that exists called WJ-9. It is the engine used in the Y-12C aircraft.

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I wrote about turboprop options for a new trainer in the engine thread. It's going to be either AEP-60E or AEP-100.

I apologize if these questions have been answered already, but yeah.. 188 pages is just too much to read and check.

Can someone tell me roughly how many JL-10/L-15B china has currently and how many they are going to acquire? Wiki claims China has 50+ in air force and 12 for navy air force.

And what role apart from trainer jets will/could they be used for? Since when I was researching and reading up on it, it sounded like they were supposed to replace the Q-5 which was apparently a ground attack/close combat support role? What does china currently use for such a role since they retired the Q-5 in 2017 or whatever? Nothing? What other aircraft does china currently field that can do such a job? J-10, J-16? Is ground attack/close combat support role even feasible in todays age of manpads etc? Like in a Taiwan situation?

Also wondering why china has so few trainer aircraft compared to usa? Should China be getting much more of these? Doesn't China have a big shortage of pilots currently, and even trainers? I remember reading articles about china even having to resort to foreign trainers, like that Aussie who got arrested and charged for training Chinese pilots, along with the crashed L-15b that also had a "Russian" who was in the photo taken after the crash when they were lying in the fields.

I hope the "low" numbers of trainer aircraft isn't because China doesn't have the engine to mass produce these yet, since even if that was the case, normally china would have found and done something else as a stop gap measure. Like keep on using russian engines. The engine is Ivchenko-Progress AI-222, and seems like they were made by Ukraine/Russia starting in 1999, and it was only after 2015 that Russia could produce them independently without needing Ukraines help. Are Russians themselves suffering from a shortage of these engines and need them for itself, so they haven't been able to sell to China? Or perhaps it's sanctions related and they can't get parts or components they need? Of course its just wild speculation so if anyone knows, please let me know.

But yeah. These sound like they could be a cheaper and just as effective alternative to the bigger more expensive jets listed above like J-10, J-16, J-11(J-11 is purely for air superiority though right? Or at least wikipedia classes it as air superiority but I don't know what the real difference is between it and J-16 except it's smaller/lighter, so it should be able to also do it if J-16 can), and could probably be just as useful in any Taiwan scenarios? Apparently they have Aesa radars so they seem to be quite modern and capable.

Since they are smaller, would the RCS also be smaller than J-10, J-11, J-16 etc? The only difference is they can carry less overall payload? So maybe these would be better choice to use in more risky situations and better to lose these than J-16 or J-11? You could also get many more of these in the sky potentially, if they are much cheaper and easier to produce than even the J-10. Do you guys think it is? If they can also be used as trainer aircraft, it could be a great benefit since China needs more trainer craft anyway?

I read some other comment from this thread and seems like China has no domestic engine equivalent? How come china hasn't developed a domestic version for it like they have with everything else? Surely China has had a program, but instead maybe they just made it lower priority compared to the other jets engines? This doesn't really make sense either I guess since China should have the money and manpower to develop as many engines concurrently at the same time.

I do not aware about recent Chinese programs in this engine class. But there must be something since from what I know China is interested in replacing the CJ-6.

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What? China is still using CJ-6 in mass numbers? But they retired the Q-5 already in 2017? How does this make sense? Is it because it's a slower plane(300km/hr) and used purely for close ground support/attack role? Like an A-10 would be used, while Q-5 is too fast and can be replaced with the newer turbojets?

Thanks for reading/replying. I apologize for all the speculation and 100 questions, just answer whatever you know. Lol

Ex0 said:

What? China is still using CJ-6 in mass numbers? But they retired the Q-5 already in 2017? How does this make sense? Is it because it's a slower plane(300km/hr) and used purely for close ground support/attack role? Like an A-10 would be used, while Q-5 is too fast and can be replaced with the newer turbojets?

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CJ-6 is a basic trainer and nothing else. It is still being used because PLAAF is a cheapskate.

Ex0 said:

What? China is still using CJ-6 in mass numbers? But they retired the Q-5 already in 2017? How does this make sense? Is it because it's a slower plane(300km/hr) and used purely for close ground support/attack role? Like an A-10 would be used, while Q-5 is too fast and can be replaced with the newer turbojets?

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No way you are using the CJ-6 in any modern active combat role. Yea it's used in a ground attack role, if you think pesticide and herbicide spraying as bombing runs on insects and weeds.

I think the Al-222 engine in the JL-10 uses a different nozzle than the variant used in the Yak-130.
It is pretty much the same engine but might require some minor changes.

Russia only managed to serial manufacture the Al-222 like a year or two ago. Right now they have a performance improvement program where they are making changes to the design to improve engine overall lifetime and reliability.

Russia and the US also have issues with their trainer aircraft park. Russia only has limited numbers of modern Yak-130 aircraft and their entry level trainers, Yak-52 and L-39, are obsolete. In the US the top end trainer the T-38 is obsolete. This means both Russia and the US lack pilots due to lack of training aircraft. So the problem is not exclusive to China.

I have heard that the T-38 due to its age is having low availability levels. So looking at sheer numbers of aircraft in possession might not be an accurate measure of capabilities.

Hasn't there ever been a substantial upgrade programme for JL-8; like more powerful engine digital avionics, new and more weapons stations ?

gelgoog said:

I think the Al-222 engine in the JL-10 uses a different nozzle than the variant used in the Yak-130.
It is pretty much the same engine but might require some minor changes.

Russia only managed to serial manufacture the Al-222 like a year or two ago. Right now they have a performance improvement program where they are making changes to the design to improve engine overall lifetime and reliability.

Russia and the US also have issues with their trainer aircraft park. Russia only has limited numbers of modern Yak-130 aircraft and their entry level trainers, Yak-52 and L-39, are obsolete. In the US the top end trainer the T-38 is obsolete. This means both Russia and the US lack pilots due to lack of training aircraft. So the problem is not exclusive to China.

I have heard that the T-38 due to its age is having low availability levels. So looking at sheer numbers of aircraft in possession might not be an accurate measure of capabilities.

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Were they all relying on Ukraine for engines? Seems like Ukraine motor sich was responsible also for Al-222. Their factories are in Zaporozhia apparently and Google says Russia shelled the factories even. Not sure who controls it now or if they still operate.

T-38 is obsolete in what way? The sensors? Avionics? It's still jet aircraft and can be used to train partially I guess and better than nothing.

Ex0 said:

......

T-38 is obsolete in what way? The sensors? Avionics? It's still jet aircraft and can be used to train partially I guess and better than nothing.

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T-38 is at the end of its structural life, therefore either expensive overhaul work is carried out or they will be forced to replace it and for that the T-7 will be an option

JL-9 demonstration flight at the Air Force Day event held in Changchun.

gelgoog said:

I think the Al-222 engine in the JL-10 uses a different nozzle than the variant used in the Yak-130.
It is pretty much the same engine but might require some minor changes.

Russia only managed to serial manufacture the Al-222 like a year or two ago. Right now they have a performance improvement program where they are making changes to the design to improve engine overall lifetime and reliability.

Russia and the US also have issues with their trainer aircraft park. Russia only has limited numbers of modern Yak-130 aircraft and their entry level trainers, Yak-52 and L-39, are obsolete. In the US the top end trainer the T-38 is obsolete. This means both Russia and the US lack pilots due to lack of training aircraft. So the problem is not exclusive to China.

I have heard that the T-38 due to its age is having low availability levels. So looking at sheer numbers of aircraft in possession might not be an accurate measure of capabilities.

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China need the alternate engine for AI-222 and has to develop it. China would collaborate with Motor Sich/Ukraine to develop it. In the prevalent circumstances they cannot depend upon Russia for that. Versions of small turbofan engines can be used for Trainer, LIFT multi-role aircraft, cheaper stealth aircraft/stealth UAV and small aircrafts for civilian use.