Chinese submarines thread

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crobato

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SSNs have the speed, but not necessarily the maneuverbility. If an SSN wants to "slug it out" with an SSK, it has its own risk. The SSK, being much smaller, can bring around its body and nose faster, to detect via hull sensors, and launch torpedoes. Be wary that SSKs are still capable of bursts of speed up to 20 knots, and you have to give a margin with undocumented and classified speeds. The Albacore back in the fifties, ran a record breaking 37 knots.

Fighting an SSK is like fighting a cobra---it can bite if you get close. Hence even if the SSN has superior speed, it still has to be very careful. But of course, speed has the advantage of being able to pick the fight under your terms.

The nuclear sub also has that other advantage in that it has much greater reserves of electrical power to power sensors and active sonars.

As for sensors, active sonar does not have that much of a range anyway, and everyone prefers to rely on passive sonar, which does not give you away and has better range anyway. Typically you can expect a sub to have a sonar location range of around 50km, but depending on the sound source and the water conditions, much further detection can be possible. Its possible to hear loud sounds across the ocean. The Astute claims it can hear across the globe. Remember, sound is not like light. Sound does not require a direct line of sight, it simply travels when there is a medium. Thus it does not have a horizon limitation. Cold dense water, especially at deep ocean, often provides the best medium. In the right conditions, sonar may well exceed radar in sheer range. This is where passive low frequency flank sonars make their money.

At periscope depth, a sub can still rely on passive radar reception (RWR) and for communications, satcom.
 

Roger604

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Given the new spate of Type 094 sightings on Google Earth, are there more of them than we thought even a few months ago? Are there 5 or 6 now?
 

crobato

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Given the new spate of Type 094 sightings on Google Earth, are there more of them than we thought even a few months ago? Are there 5 or 6 now?


I think 3 or 4, matched with an equal number of 093s at least. I don't see why they would build so many. Having 3 or 4 is already a surprise and don't seem to fit my logic either since IMO having more 093s are more useful (or build a lot more Yuans for the same amount of money). After all the subs are not fully operational in the sense they are fitted with JL-2s which is not yet operational itself. So in the meantime they're doing trials.

My speculation is two stationed in the sub base at Dalian, while another two will be stationed in the sub base near Sanya, Hainan.
 

coolieno99

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2. SSK's are best suited in a choke point role or in a dedicated intel gathering mission. They are limited by their reduced transit speeds, in that they have batteries to recharge, and you can imagine why a surface transit would be unwise for a variety of reasons.
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SSK cruising in transit still remain underwater. It raises a snorkel tube to the surface to take in fresh air and emit engine exhaust for its diesel engine.
 

tphuang

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I think 3 or 4, matched with an equal number of 093s at least. I don't see why they would build so many. Having 3 or 4 is already a surprise and don't seem to fit my logic either since IMO having more 093s are more useful (or build a lot more Yuans for the same amount of money). After all the subs are not fully operational in the sense they are fitted with JL-2s which is not yet operational itself. So in the meantime they're doing trials.

My speculation is two stationed in the sub base at Dalian, while another two will be stationed in the sub base near Sanya, Hainan.

I think there maybe more 093s than most people think. That could be part of the issue. And the other part is when they are going to conduct the next JL-2 test I wonder.
 

Roger604

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The radar cross-section of a snorkel is way too small to be effectively detected. Even if the entire submarine surfaces, it would still be hard to detect by radar unless you are really close or lucky.
 

crobato

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And there would be a lot of radars looking for snorkels, that's for sure.

You need to be able to identify it too.

I think if you see a radar return of something very small sticking out alone in the deep ocean water, I would probably have enough suspicion to try and investigate it.

However, in littoral waters or waters with a lot of sea traffic, that includes yachts, fishing boats etc,. the snorkels, heck even the whole sub, can play "fit into the crowd" too.

If you notice many modern submarines (not the PLAN's however) they use straight upper decks with straight angled sides on the upper hulls. That does not really improve hydrodynamic streamlining but it does reduce and localize radar returns for a lower RCS. Adding an X shaped tail would also reduce radar returns.
 

Sczepan

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The radar cross-section of a snorkel is way too small to be effectively detected. Even if the entire submarine surfaces, it would still be hard to detect by radar unless you are really close or lucky.
in WW II, the german subs at least have had snorkels - and was detected and killed very soon ....
 

crobato

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in WW II, the german subs at least have had snorkels - and was detected and killed very soon ....

That's not really correct. For the most part of the war, they didn't have any snorkels. Until finally late in the war they started to have snorkels.

At that time they were also running on designs that spent more time at the water than under it. The major revolution began with the Type XXIII and XXI subs, as these were the first ever subs in the world that can spend more time underwater than on top. While the Type XXI was never went into combat, the Type XXIII did and none of them were ever sunk in combat.
 
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