Chinese submarines thread
- Thread starter tphuang
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Nice update, Chris. It's really hard to say how many 093s there are. Although from the previous pictures of seeing one in the dock and one that is half out from the overhead shelter. It seems like a lot are being built right now.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
This article is about ONE South Africa's Type 209 diesel submarine that was able to defeat a NATO anti-submarine force during an exercise. Little details are given about this exercise. From quick searching, it seems this exercise did not pit NATO submarines against this lone Type 209.
Another hint that China's diesel submarines might be far more deadlier in littoral warfare against surface ships than previously thought by Western sources, especially if China's diesel submarines are more capable than the Type 209, like China's Russian-made Kilos, Improved Kilos, and Further Improved Kilos, and China's own Songs. I wonder how capable the new Russian Lada diesel subs and China's new Yuan diesel subs are for littoral warfare?!
Another hint that China's diesel submarines might be far more deadlier in littoral warfare against surface ships than previously thought by Western sources, especially if China's diesel submarines are more capable than the Type 209, like China's Russian-made Kilos, Improved Kilos, and Further Improved Kilos, and China's own Songs. I wonder how capable the new Russian Lada diesel subs and China's new Yuan diesel subs are for littoral warfare?!
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I'm not sure if the one that is half way out of the assembly hall is an 094 or 093. It is either one or the other. My presumption is that it is probably an 094, since chances are, things are built in "spurts" and this is a 094 build "spurt".
What is sure right now is at least one 093 is stationed in Sanya, in Hainan, and at least one 093 is stationed in Xiaopingdao. That makes two subs at least. The Xiaopingdao 093 is probably meant to convoy an 094 as a pair. At least one or two 093s may be assigned to each 094 as an escort.
For that reason I think there should be at least two 093s meant to tail the second and third 094s.
One hazy photo suggests there may be two 093s in Hainan, but its too hazy, and there is a probability that the other long sub may be the improved 091.
The bottom line is that the 093 sub appears to be considered successful enough to warrant a quick mass production and developed into a variant, which is the 094. 093 related technologies may also be used to upgrade the Xia and the Hans. Still there are some room for improvement, which not necessarily mean a new sub class but something like an 093G. Based on previous patterns with other natives, towards the end of the contract line, the last one or two 093 would have technologies that may foreshadow the next class.
A Type 209 is still a very quiet sub by modern standards. Nonetheless, the exercise should not be taken as proof of superiority of the conventional sub over a surface fleet. In exercises, subs also get "killed" once in a while. In fact, the diesel sub should always work on the presumption it may be detected, should never be overconfident or underestimate the opposition. Luck still plays a factor once in a while, as well as human mistakes. Even more than any platform, the human factor is at work for the submarine, and you probably got a very skilled crew and commander in that SA sub (the captain ironically is named Krestchmer).
Here is something I like to bring up. Its that October picture that showed the two 094s on the pier. I made a close up of the conning tower in order to analyze the second submarine.
I noticed that the line that points to the hump on the back is not as high on the second sail as it is on the sail on the foreground. The first time it came to my mind is that the farther sub may not be an 094 at all, but an 093. But looking at it closer, it does seem to have a hump, but in relation to the diving plane on the sail, the hump is not as high as the sub in the foreground. The second sail does not seem to be complete, as the section with the rear "windows" are not in place yet. Despite that the two subs are in parallel, the sail on the background is shorter than the sail in the foreground, and there are two visible slits to the rear that is absent on the sail on the foreground. The windows are slightly larger on the background sail and its nicely showing us a periscope sensor.
So what is this other 094 where the hump is only half as high, and the sail is not as long. I do suspect this is probably the sub whose tail appendage we saw coming out of the assembly hall in Google Earth. The picture is October when the GE picture is May.
Closeup on the holes on the hump seems to indicate that the flood holes on the bottom of the turtleback seem hinged, with the direction of the holes itself facing forward. That means the holes will flood fast if the sub is moving forward and the design of it suggests it may also be closed with the door moving outward.
I noticed that the line that points to the hump on the back is not as high on the second sail as it is on the sail on the foreground. The first time it came to my mind is that the farther sub may not be an 094 at all, but an 093. But looking at it closer, it does seem to have a hump, but in relation to the diving plane on the sail, the hump is not as high as the sub in the foreground. The second sail does not seem to be complete, as the section with the rear "windows" are not in place yet. Despite that the two subs are in parallel, the sail on the background is shorter than the sail in the foreground, and there are two visible slits to the rear that is absent on the sail on the foreground. The windows are slightly larger on the background sail and its nicely showing us a periscope sensor.
So what is this other 094 where the hump is only half as high, and the sail is not as long. I do suspect this is probably the sub whose tail appendage we saw coming out of the assembly hall in Google Earth. The picture is October when the GE picture is May.
Closeup on the holes on the hump seems to indicate that the flood holes on the bottom of the turtleback seem hinged, with the direction of the holes itself facing forward. That means the holes will flood fast if the sub is moving forward and the design of it suggests it may also be closed with the door moving outward.
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They've done that three or four times now, and it is rather irritating. This is why I always save screen captures of anything interesting
I do agree that this is an 093, it measures out larger and wider than the 091s seen at Qingdao.Try looking at the google image from abowe and you see that the length of the sail is the same. There are length comparisation for all the Google-pictures on other forums. About the size of the windows, I think it is only a difference in the paint-job. You see this often on subs, at least on russian subs.
The hight of the hump is also the same. I think you are beeing fooled by the small building next to the background sub (the light blue building on the pier next to the sub). So you actually don see the hole sail, or the top of the hump. Look again at the Google image and you see the building there
Pointblank
Senior Member
A couple of things to note:
1. If a threat axis is known, an SSK can be prepositioned (given time) to provide a deterrent. That means you know which direction a enemy is possibility coming from. In the exercise, it appears that the threat axis was known and a submarine was prepositioned in place.
2. SSK's are best suited in a choke point role or in a dedicated intel gathering mission. They are limited by their reduced transit speeds, in that they have batteries to recharge, and you can imagine why a surface transit would be unwise for a variety of reasons.
3. Submarines has a very small look zone when compared to a surface ship using the many other sensors available for area search. Submarines want to stay covert, so the use of radar or active sonar is considered suicidal at best. Therefore, you need another platform to provide the long range eyes that are needed to provide the targeting for the submarine.
4. In a SSK vs SSN fight, the SSN will always win, unless it is an ambush at close range. SSN's have the speed and maneuverability to run far and hide and plan a counter attack. A SSN can pick and choose when to fight due to its speed and maneuverability, giving it the initiative. SSK's can't.
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