Chinese submarines thread

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Actually those lines with holes are not just very nice, they can be very noisy, and that's not good for the sub.

The lines around the hump are kind of like exhaust vents for the missiles as they blast off. The sub should have a means to conceal them when it is running otherwise they would end up being noisy and easy picking to a sub hunter.

The lines around the hull are limber hole lines. These are drainage for the ballast tanks. Like Russian subs, the Chinese subs appear to need more drainage because of their use of double hull construction. Western subs tend to use single hull designs (except for the Seawolf and Virginia class---a shift in US design policy). So they need less drainage.

But that's really not the reason why the single hull design is chosen by most countries. The reason is cost. Far cheaper to make a single hull design in a country with a high labor cost. Obviously Russia, and especially China, had cheap labor so they can get away with it. Well the Soviet Union can use Communist labor force to build its subs, but with modern salaries in Russia on the rise, sooner or later they will be forced into single hull designs. If you check the new conventional Amur/Lada class subs, they're single hulled, unlike the Kilo, which unlike in past years, will cost you a lot more if you order now.

But then again, note why the US changed to double hull designs. Double hulls have greater reserve buoyancy and diving displacement. They provide an additional layer of protection for the pressure hull, thanks to the outer hull. However, these subs like the Seawolf and the Virginia class, end up costing a lot more too.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

The word, depending on what you believe in is that this is some sort of an interim class between original 092s and the "real 094" class. The "shrimp" that mentionned this also said that there are 3 of this class and the real 094 is also launched somewhere and has no hump. Anyhow, for me for now, I will just consider this a new class from 092. There seems to be around 3 of this class from the GE photos + 1 or 2 of the original 092.

Also on the SSNs, I think there are probably more 093s out there than most people think, because SSBN numbers have dramatically increased with the recent unveilings.

 

[Eurofighter]

Re: Chinese sub thread

The "shrimp" that mentionned this also said that there are 3 of this class and the real 094 is also launched somewhere and has no hump. Anyhow, for me for now, I will just consider this a new class from 092. There seems to be around 3 of this class from the GE photos + 1 or 2 of the original 092.

no hump? Do you mean the ones that has a 'flat' surface like the ohio class? if this is true then the 'real' type 094 could turn out to be a much larger sub than these 'transition class' of subs we just saw in the picture right? may be in the order of 14.000t to 16.000t?
Could anything from those statements be verified by any means? Is there any indication that China would build subs of that size? (may be that's the reason why they've build that new factory - the blue building in the above picture?)

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I can no longer say these are 092 because the limber hole patterns and designs in these subs match those of the 093 rather than the 092. That means the basic hull and powerplant are from the 093, and these subs are boomers that are derived from the 093 by stretching the design and adding the missile compartment. This would match the 094 designation by deriving from the 093 as the 092 is derived from the 091.

If there is a new sub that has no hump at all, then this sub has no SSN equivalent or base that it was drawn from. This sub would be an entirely new design built to be an SSBN and not a conversion from an SSN. It would not be an 094 but an 096 at least.

 

[Roger604]

Re: Chinese sub thread

^ Alternatively, remember our good friend the Type 093 without the diving planes on the sail?

Maybe that's the sub that matches the hump-less Type 094!

Referring to the earlier quote from the big shrimps, maybe a turning point was reached between the years 2005/2006. The design was modified -- Type 094G and Type 093G.

In 2005, there are 3 Type 094's (with humps) and 5 Type 093's (diving planes on sail).

By 2010, there will be an additional 2 Type 094's (without humps), and 3 additional Type 093's (without diving planes on sail). One of each have been under sea trial as of late 2007.

The question is: do these two modified subs use pump jet?

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

You have to divide the subs as per generation. What defines generation is their nuclear reactor design and power train, and then their hull design.

The Han and the Xia represents the first generation. The Xia is basically a heavily modded Han.

This boomer you see definitely belongs to the 2nd generation with the 093. The power train, the nuclear reactor, the quieting features, the hull, all are one generation ahead of the Han/Xia. It is basically a heavily modded 093 in the same way as the Xia from Han relationship.

Now lets assume there is a third sub, a new boomer design. The point remains now whether this sub belongs to the 3rd generation with the 095, or is it an extension of the 2nd generation.

Even if 2nd generation, it won't be an extension of the 093 as the boomers we have sen, because to create a humpless SSBN, this SSBN is designed from scratch to be an SSBN, not a modified SSN. It will have to be its own distinct class. So the question is where the nuclear reactor and power train generation belong to.

This humpless sub won't be an 094G, but an 096. The 093's nuclear reactor and power train technologies date back to the early nineties, so a new sub should take a generational or evolutionary step from that. If indeed there is an 096 that was launched, then an 095 should have been there as well, since a first 095 would have to test the new technologies first before they're considered "proven" for an SSBN.

 

[Roger604]

Re: Chinese sub thread

But suppose the "missing link" SSN is the one shown without diving planes on the sail, and that is in the same generation as the original Type 093, then both the new SSN and the new SSBN can be called Type 093G and Type 094G.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

"G" or even "A" might be acceptable on the SSN without the sail planes, but "G" or even "A" would be a stretch for a boomer that was specifically built from the ground up to be a boomer. It really should merit a new designation number, unless the "G", "A", or "B" is reflective of the way surface ships are designated e.g. (051, 051B, 051C or 052, 052B, 052C.)

I mean this really should be an all new class. It will have to be much bigger, much more powerful, much heavier in displacement, and I don't mean in a small way. The current boomer you see should be around 9 to 10,000mt. We're talking of at least 14-16,000mt this time. It should carry at least 16 missiles this time, probably up to 24. Another 30m might be added to its length. This sub would dwarf the boomer you see now. Your reactor and power train would have to be more powerful, and maybe this time, a pump jet would be opted. And this time, they really need to cut down on the holes along the ship.

The Ohio, the Borei, the Typhoon, the Vanguard, the Triumphant class, all these are massive subs that were specifically made to be boomers from the start, though only three of these really bothered to remove the hump.

 

[Roger604]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Your point is well taken. You mean that if they remove the hump, then it would need to be a much bigger submarine. And if it is a much bigger submarine, then it would need a new reactor, drive train. Therefore, it would be a different class.

Well, it seems that Chinese BBS sources refer to both the SSBN in the photographs and the unknown "humpless" SSBN by the term "Type 094 Jin-class". So we're kind of stuck.

Using the photograph we have and the height of the sailor shown, I had estimated earlier that the diving plane-less Type 093 is 420 feet (128 meters). This is significantly longer than the one with the diving plane, I think, since the Type 094 in the photograph is only 131 meters, and is considerably extended by the missile compartment. So the Type 093 with the diving plane is probably only about 92 meters.

I think there is a huge size gap between the modified 093/094's and the unmodified 093/094's. About 28% in fact. So the modified 094 (which we haven't seen yet) could be about 164 meters. That should be good for ~24 JL-2's.

 

[Violet Oboe]

Re: Chinese sub thread

There are rumours around that the first type 095/096 subs are at least in the process of cutting first steel but probably already taking shape at Bohai/Huludao. Moreover these subs will employ pump jet propulsion according to some knowledgeable guys...:coffee:

My personal view is that PLAN's admirals were deeply impressed by DCN's Le Triomphant class back in the 90's and that type 096 could bear a striking resemblance to Marine Nationale's SNLE-NG. (138 m, 14500 t dived, 16 M45/51 SLBM (6 MIRV, 8000 km), pump jet)

This would practically be the optimal SSBN for PLAN but they were inconveniently barred from ordering some directly from DCN Cherbourg so China had to go the hard way and built that gadget on their own. (...though this does not imply that China would simply copy the french design but similar requirements often produce similar results!)

Interestingly Marine Nationale planned initially to procure 6 SNLE-NG with the last pair lenghtened to fit for 20 M-51 SLBM's but this was cancelled for budget restraint reasons. Obviously financial limits are currently not of primary concern for PLAN and consequently they could directly go for a 096 equipped with 20 JL-3 (longer range (10000 km), more effective penetration aides for 6 MARV's).
Of course this would constitute a colossal technological challenge for China's engineers (sub and missile guys!) but they could ultimately prove to be world class if they are up to the task.